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 Post subject: Anorexic Mercurys?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:07 am 
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Something occured to me.

Here's the premise:

Mercurys have large RCS thrusters in their engine sections. It would follow that they have some in the gator-head, too, since galactica has them as well.

That should result in massive torsion forces or torque on the midship section whenever they perform maneuvers.

The question now becomes: why would the idiot designers cinch the midships the way they did?

The midship sections would have to be massively reinforced (since there's no such things as structural-integrity fields) and the only spaces left would have to be for traversing the ship from fore-to-aft and the transfer corridors between the flight-pods. The only "work" sections would then be the gator-head, the flight-pods and aft engine section. And personally, that's stupid to me.

The bottom line here is wastage. Wastage of all the space that could have gone into making the Mercurys better battlestars. Space that could have been allocated for more weapons for tactical superiority or agroponics bays to prolong stores or deployable mining modules for resourcing metal and tylium ores or tylium refining apparatuses for fuel replenishment or any of a dozen other things that could have made them better!

Please discuss.

I'm sleepy now. I'll get to the nature of tylium and the main KEWs tomorrow.


Last edited by Anonymous on Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:27 am 
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Location: Onboard the Battlestar Overlord
I've had a thought for a long time. Yes, I know thinking is something I should not do, but as of this month I've been sober for two years. Sue me.

[quote]Admiral Krueger, in general, yes, I agree, but I also think we tend to forget the 3D aspect a bit, and that ships can roll fairly fast to bring guns to bear, so it looks ridiculous, but its only apparent what it can do under fire. And I have no real issue with a virtually unprotected rear, as the beefy drives basically limit what you could bring to bear. If you want extra guns there, you have to build them, platforms, shielding form the heat and radiation of the engines, protect their crews, ammo, provide ammo bays, etc. Or you can just swing 90 degrees to port and engage that way. My general impression is that 1CW Basestars were significantly slower than Battlestars, and 2CW Bio-Basestars are faster, but not so fast that can saber dance in a Battlestars blind spot, and not so tough they can afford to take a chance fighting a Battlestar one on one either. I am a little surprised that the shift from solid fore end coverage to flank coverage happened, because a Mercury class clearly isn


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:31 am 
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I think the "embedded batteries" as you term it ( I use Spinal or Chin mount) are much heavier than the turret guns, agree the turrets probably use a standardized or near standardized round within their size grouping ( light, Med, Hvy, Super, Mega, Colossal, etc...I have several sizes and avoid actually putting calibers to them...) also makes sense that the huge guns on Galactica whould be "embedded/spinal" mounts on smaller vessels, those ships using mediums or lights in their turrets...and that the chin guns on Pegasus could be ( and I use them as such) turret-mounted on a larger ship....and yet a bigger caliber may exist...firing Frigate size shells... :thumbsup :damnfunny

if you are saying the KEW on Galactica are 7 foot calibre or so I disagree, they at least appear larger, or we are having scaling problems on film again...I dont really care how big they are just as long as they basicly perform in the game as they do on film...they do

Like I said the Warstar design with 4 pods is almost/kinda an X-configuration...like launch tubes still, but your right about stacking and congestion at the ends...doesnt come into game terms much ...yet...

Cylons also use KEW as ground base flak defense (Hand of God), the Basestars in Razor are not shown (notice I say shown) firing KEW....unbelievably
although the Guardians Basestar looks like it may have KEW and I assume all 1st generation Cylon ships to use KEW,

whadda ya hear? :cool:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:27 pm 
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Agree AdmKruger- Cylon new gen ships not as tough or armored, they use fighters and their numbers to make up the gap...also the new-gen Cylon ships carry no guns of any kind ( as far as I can tell and thats the way I stated them out for the game,-old gen Cylons use guns but they are lighter than Colonial equivalent in numbers and caliber)

New-Gen Cylons use missiles and fighters as point defence, and as their primary offensive weapons, again the Cylons send their fighters to do the dirty work, because they cant stand up to a Battlestar one on one...they are more carrier and missile platform than battleship/Dreadnought-Carriers...

Old generation cylon ships arent any tougher though...I think...but they always have quantity on their side...at least thats how I am playing it out

without the CNP its a war :thumbsup , and as I said ( before controversially ) with the CNP its "a psychotic-child murdering a helpless retard"....CNP is a great deus-ex-machina/plot device, but its lousy for wargaming...unless all you want is the RTF and continually running and being on the losing end...desperation is great but its pretty limiting in the long run...look at the end of the series...

whadda ya hear?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:17 pm 
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Location: Onboard the Battlestar Overlord
Even with the CNP it would make sense that either:

Colonial Fleet Command has a standing order to de-network all computers and remove all information sharing software upon entering into hostilities with the Cylons.

Or:

Some Colonial ship commanders take similar such measures on their own, leading to a significant number of intact and fully-armed Colonial ships ready to form up and attack.

You're right, it is a psycho murdering a cripple. Without it, and the Cylons have to work for their genocidal glee, rather than just acquiring it all at once in a single day. Yes, the series had to have this happen as it's a remake of an iconic 70s TV show with the same plot, but it still makes no sense to have only two surviving battlestars in a fleet that numbers hundreds.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:55 pm 
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The Colonial fleets problem isn't that is would not revise its intended plans t fight a tech savvy enemy they know, its that they assumed they had reached a point where such an enemy could not, literally was unable too, overwhelm there system defenses, and in that view, a networked system that is not designed to be unlinked makes sense. In fact, it honestly looks like to me they did reach that level. After all, the Cylons did not fly in and cyber assault the Colonial ships, they used espionage to plant a full spectrum screw you bug in all systems that were being upgraded (and that could be upgraded) to the new, financially and tactically secure CNP.

Basically, the Cylons placed a long bet that the Colonials would upgrade ALL of their ships, and that the Cylons faulty CNP program would then allow even small numbers to step in an annihilate the fleet at their leisure. It would take a Herculean effort to counter that in a period of time sufficient to organize a unified defense. I figured there were significantly less Basestars than even heavy Battlestars such as Pegasus, and that there were even fewer Raiders than Vipers, though out the colonies full spread of ships, stations and bases. But the Cylons has the CNP, which not only made fighting them impossible, it also basically told the Cylons where a ship with it installed was at, where it was going, and when it would get there. It


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 10:58 am 
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Yeah no CNP in my universe...No RTF....No Holocaust....the Colonies overriding business is war, and its business as usual,

Cylon fleet larger and has more classes than the Colonies...Colonial ships are tougher more lethal and fewer...

Quality (Colonies) vs Quantity ( Cylons), and the unknown variable the Pirates and Alien-races...stalemate Trench warfare in the Stars...decisive major victories are few and far between skirmishes are common but often inconclusive...

whadda ya hear? :thumbsup


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 12:09 pm 
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I am curious Myr, you say decisive battles are few and far between. Does that mean that in most of your engagements, most of the combatants go home at the end? As in, someone might lose a smaller ship or two, and sometimes even a Star class bites it, but mostly its just major repairs, better luck next time type stuff.

Mainly just curious really, I did war game for a bit when I was younger, before RPG seduced me away to its version of the dark side.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:56 pm 
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Gryphon...

Few planets change hands, strategic war altering turning points are rare, casualty rates are high...damaged large ships are common and you dont want your favourite ship sidelined because its in the FRD...

for the Colonies
Fighters both cause the most and sustain the most casualties...Squadrons are 40 planes for a reason (5 flights of 8)

Bombers/Gunboats/Pseudo-Fighters/Missile-boats/ they use 8 or 12 plane squadrons and sustain large casualties as well, they are not produced or used in the same numbers Vipers are...Primarily because the need to defend against Cylon fighter swarms is best handled by large numbers of Vipers...still these types are in the thick of it...giving heavy anti-ship support capability to the Vipers Dogfighting squadrons...

Escortstars and Patrolstar ( FF and DD classes also PC and Corvettes etc)
these are by far the most destroyed of the larger ships they tend to be used to screen and shield larger vessels so are often "sacrificed" or used overly boldly because they are cheaper to replace and faster to build...and it doesnt hurt so much :blackeye

Cruiserstar(CA,CL,CE,) and Gunstar(DN,BB,BC,) (also Strikestar and Missilestar) Capital ships and considered some of the more valuable main fleet battle elements...while commonly damaged they also tend to be tough enough to survive the damage so they are often being repaired...and occasionally have to skip an engagement :sad: ...

Battlestars (all types and sizes) rarely killed...sometimes "offscreen", and almost always damaged during battles...being the enemies usual primary target they are at the center of the "area defence ring" also they are massively defended with their own weapons...

for the Cylons:
Fighters-Raiders ( Scout, Missile, Mk-II, Mk-I, Las-Raider, etc ) so common killing one is practically a badge of mahood...no a few things...just under half of all Cylon ships carry fighters and or bombers...these dont reincarnate...they are more like semi-intelligent ammo...they are used for both offensive and defensive roles...a Regiment is 20-40 Raiders, special types are usually used/assigned in groups of 8...they are churned out in huge numbers and are considered as expendable as bullets, being the fighter equivalent of a Centurion...casualties are a matter of supreme indifference

Bombers and assault transports again not produced in same numbers as fighters, heavy anti-ship attack and ground-attack/assault,

Basestars are definately not as common as they are in the show...in other words your ships usually see Raider-wings and smaller ships (FF,DD,CL,CA,DN or maybe an older basestar or light Basestar) sure the big Basestars (Worldstar, Fleetstar, Greatstar, Masterstar, Flagstar, Styx and Damocles classes and others) are there but they are hanging back, Like Battlestar's, behind their escorts, sending fighter wings to attack...and relying on their missiles and escorts to follow up or protect them...getting through to one and destroying it isnt ever easy...damaging them and forcing them to jump away has happened more often...

last game the Colonials lost
1 Loki Class CL ( Raiders and missiles from cylon ships),
1 Firestar class DD, (rammed by a Cylon Boardingstar),
2 FF (fighters,missiles,KEW ship salvoes)
1 Gunstar ( an old DN) was badly damaged,
a second Gunstar ( an old BC) was moderately damaged, and the advanced-Gunstar- the squadron leader (an uprated Cronus class DNX) was also moderately damaged all damaged ships will roll for availability before tonights first scenario...our Battlestar the Hermes ( Heavy Mercury-III class was untouched,however only getting off some very long range KEW fire during the battle) but had lost some fighters and bombers...

the Cylons lost:
3 basilisk class FF ( fighters/Bombers, 1 to KEW fire)
2 Q-Tankers (Fighters/bombers)
2 Minotaur class DD ( 1 KEW fire, 1 fighters/bombers)
1 Boardingstar (rammed a Colonial DD was destroyed in the subsuequent boarding action then self-destruction of the Colonial DD, damaged by KEW first)
1 Hades class (old) Basestar ( fighters, bombers, KEW fire )
@380 Raiders and 40+ Heavy Raiders also destroyed...
1 Heavy Asteroid Ship-primary victory objective (KEW-fire, Nukes, missiles)

other Cylon ships were damaged but escaped, including a Greatstar-(12 pointed new-Basestar, Ravenstar Red Spur) hit by heavy-KEW salvo and had inbound missiles and Fighters/Bombers when it boogied...

whadda ya hear?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 7:15 pm 
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Sounds pretty sweet actually, would make for a good epic war report concept if you took the connected scenarios and wrote up military style AARs, and maybe some generated interviews with key personnel.

Also, I was wondering how you represent specific unit experience for thigns like squadrons and ships?


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 Post subject: the nature of tylium
PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 4:59 am 
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Ok, to get things back on track,

THE NATURE OF TYLIUM AND IT'S DERIVATIVES:

Aside from the official info on tylium --> http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Tylium
I've decided to flesh out my universe's backstory on the fuel source.

Basically, tylium is sunlight/solar power in physical form--powdery solid as tylium ore, liquid as refined tylium. That's why it has such a high enthalpy rate and burns so cleanly.

Tylium does not naturally occur on ANY celestial body that has any kind of atmosphere. The solar emissions that form tylium cycle from a wave-form to a particle-form and then back. As these particles strike solid celestial bodies, they accumulate as the raw, powdery ore depicted. ANY kind of atmosphere inhibits the transition from wave to particle and back, therefore, tylium can ONLY be mined from asteroids and moons and planets that have no atmospheres. It goes without saying that it takes a looong time for tylium deposits to form and is only partially offset by the high energy-yield of the refined fuel.

DERIVATIVES:

It was a pre-AoC (Articles of Colonization) Leonid who first thought to include tylium in the classic BCP (ballistic chemical propellant) formula for KEWs which the Leonids had invented. Pre-1CW BCP was itself a derivation of Leonid Black Powder, a classic Leonid firework formula. The addition of refined tylium to the powdery black leonid formula affected it's appearance, making it result in a pale, paste-like mixture. The greatest efficacy and propulsive-force came when the resultant mixture was dried and compressed into a chalk-like product. This example was later displayed by chief Tyrol when he examined a sabotaged viper round manufactured by a Demand Peace cylon-sympathizer. This new formula led to the development of modern KEWs and the KEW Battle-doctrine that the newly-formed Colonial Fleet adopted from the hard lessons they were learning in the 1CW. The modern designation of this new formula is TBP.

This naturally led to the expanded use of tylium and tylium-precursor in various kinds of explosives like G4 and conventional explosive-warheads.

There you have it. Discuss.

This will also have a bearing on the next topic, turreted vs embedded KEWs.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 3:01 pm 
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sure why not, doesnt affect the way game mechanics work a bit, so it could come from crystallized daggit poo and I would be all for it....except dont like having my propellant for my KEW coming from my fuel source, derived from it... whatzit...also dont know if it should only be found in a vacumn...tylium meteorite hits planet....eh I am not a scientist and since its fictional....

push button make ship go! push other button make ship shoot! huh huh...was a bit deep in my cups last night for this skull-sweat this early, we had a great game...Cylons really got pasted, and the story took some weird turns...love it...

the Spinal KEW just fire shells too large for most ships to accomadate in turrets, they probably feed from a vertical magazine like an auto-pistol probably why they are mounted low in the hull, also the barrels are pretty long, could be:

Rocket assisted or propelled
Nuclear warhead
Guided

just some fairly basic thoughts on it, Mercury class has them Colombia class and Valkyrie class dont appear to....we see them used at New Caprica and in Commander sore-snipe's, 3 on 1 trap-ambush in "the Captains Hand" where the damage they inflict on the basestar is arguably fatal to it, they are not shown being fired in either "Razor" or "Resurrection ship" :sad:

love those guns probably my favorite weapon on the show wish they would give you more official info on everything-technobabble or no I will take it...

whadda ya hear? :thumbsup


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 3:04 pm 
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sure why not, doesnt affect the way game mechanics work a bit, so it could come from crystallized daggit poo and I would be all for it....except dont like having my propellant for my KEW coming from my fuel source, derived from it... whatzit...also dont know if it should only be found in a vacumn...tylium meteorite hits planet....eh I am not a scientist and since its fictional....

push button make ship go! push other button make ship shoot! huh huh...was a bit deep in my cups last night for this skull-sweat this early, we had a great game...Cylons really got pasted, and the story took some weird turns...love it...

the Spinal KEW just fire shells too large for most ships to accomadate in turrets, they probably feed from a vertical magazine like an auto-pistol probably why they are mounted low in the hull, also the barrels are pretty long, could be:

Rocket assisted or propelled
Nuclear warhead
Guided

just some fairly basic thoughts on it, Mercury class has them Colombia class and Valkyrie class dont appear to....we see them used at New Caprica and in Commander sore-snipe's, 3 on 1 trap-ambush in "the Captains Hand" where the damage they inflict on the basestar is arguably fatal to it, they are not shown being fired in either "Razor" or "Resurrection ship" :sad:

love those guns probably my favorite weapon on the show wish they would give you more official info on everything-technobabble or no I will take it...

whadda ya hear? :thumbsup


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:01 am 
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Does anyone else hear an echo?

Honestly? I never really questioned the existence of a sci-fi material, not event trilithium hull plates, dilithium crystals, dark matter, etc. But your approach seems to work, though Myr's point about an asteroid rich in tylium striking a planet sort of makes sense too. Two points there, does tylium automatically incinerate under those conditions, and does the presence of an atmosphere cause the tylium to "boil off"?

As for it being in the propellant, I don't really see a need for that, but I CAN see it being an integral part of the warheads of cannon shells, gyrojet shells, missiles, and similar ideas. A material that burns cleanly for purposes of propulsion and also burns rapidly for purposes of destruction seems a bit unstable to me. Though tylium from the old series was unstable, I don't get the same impression of the new series, otherwise Apollo's attack on the Cylon refinery should have triggered a massive chain reaction. So its a bit of a rough call there honestly.


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 Post subject: nature of tylium
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 4:53 am 
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Even if raw tylium is relatively inert, the heat of a tylium asteroid entering into an atmosphere WILL burn that sucker up, but good! You actually took the words out of my mouth in regards to that scenario. :thumbsup As for atmosperic effects, they stop tylium from forming instead of "boiling off" accumulated tylium. What happens to majority of sunlight that hits our atmosphere? Most of it bounces off into space. The rest is absorbed by plants or bounces around inside the atmosphere regulating global temperature by keeping this rock relatively warm (else we'd be on an iceball). Therefore, the cycling particle-form of tylium doesn't get to build up tylium deposits. The cycling wave-form is either deflected off into space or it's used up in photosynthesis or climate-regulation before it can cycle into the particle-form and build up. :wink:

As for the propellant aspect, it IS NOT the the whole propellant itself. Think of it as taking Real Life gunpowder and supercharging it with liquid tylium as an extra ingredient. Therefore producing much higher muzzle-velocity than any terrestrial artillery piece or battleship 18-incher. There's no instability since it uses refined, "stable", liquid tylium in the recipe, not the less stable tylium-precursor. Tylium-precursor is used as part of missile warheads cuz if you use it with KEW rounds, the propulsive detonation of the TBP will blow that sucker up while it's still in the barrel. Missiles can be launched with more stability and the warheads will carry a bigger bang.

Myr, if tylium could be found outside of vacuum, what would be the challenge in it's ready abundance? :? It's apparently canon that the Colonies have to mine outside of their system to get tylium. BTW, I love the chin-guns too. I'll have my next concept up soon and I hope it'll meet your standards.

Use the concepts or not, it's no biggie! Not as if I'm getting copyright royalties! :damnfunny

Reason why I conceptualized it at all was summed up by you.-->
gryphon wrote:
Myr uses a war gaming approach to the situation, while I use a role playing approach,

Mine is from that of a storyteller (which is essentially what RPG is, come to think of it!).

Tylium is the way that it is in my universe cuz it will serve the plot and conflict. It's used in weapon systems to increase it's consumption and demand, making it far more essential to the Colonial survivors than as a mere fuel. You notice that after "The Hand of God", there's no more mention of tylium shortages--over the remaining three seasons!--something a refugee fleet must constantly consider among it's myriad resources. It was like, "yay, we've got more tylium; that's the end of that! ho-hum, blahblahblah". The impure tylium in "Dirty Hands" is more an issue of labor than supply and demand as the tylium began to flow once the central issue was resolved.

I want my universe to have a less-cavalier attitude about the many inter-related factors that keep the Colonial survivors the frak alive. Seems RDM and the writing teams were so cloistered in their first-world abundance that they left a whole aspect of refugee existence unexplored cuz they focused too much on interpersonal angst. :evil:


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