Wolfs Shipyard Forum

The new forum for Wolf's Shipyard
It is currently Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:25 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 19 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Think Tank
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 7:28 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2011 1:00 am
Posts: 4494
Location: Battlestar Hecate BSG-94
Schulz189 wrote:
MisterMord wrote:
2. Concept: Dedicated Colonial Bombers
- Light Bombers
- Medium Bombers
- Heavy Bombers


What are they going to "bomb"?

If they're for ground support, that's one thing. If they're to go after ships, then I think it might be a questionable endeavor unless the ships are small and soft skinned. Let's look at the equation from another perspective...I'm going to make the assumption that their use will be anti-shipping for my comments below.

Fighters against capital warships are going to be facing a massively uphill battle; you won't see a replay of Midway or Leyte Gulf using fighters because they're just too robust unless you use an insane amount of nuclear weapons that all hit with a very short span of time (a few seconds at most) where if they detonate close enough to the hull and with enough detonations you might be able to push it past its stress limit (this was done by Werewolf and Preserver when they first encountered the drones and when Arete delivered her killshot the kinetics managed to soften up the armor for the missiles
).


I would submit that they would be not only for action against Cylon targets, but for bombing each other.

The Colonies as a united group are not that old and are loaded with competing planetary and radical factions. A fact that you have exploited brilliantly in your story "Lady Hecate". Certainly a dedicated bomber capable of inter/extra atmospheric operations would have a niche in the Colonial Military and I am sure the Colonial Military purchases weapons systems to be used against these potential threats as well as the Cylons. A vessel at least as large as an old style shuttle, I would shoot for something larger than...maybe like a small cutter. Armored to absorb some flak and armed with defense stations and using EW and maneuverability to avoid capital ship weaponry the concept is viable. A flight of 3 B-52's were capable in most cases of using electronic counter measures to ward off most SAM attacks. While hardly invulnerable the bombers of the 8th AF presented a very credible defense against fighter attacks in WW2.[/quote]

From a political perspective, I'm not sure that this would muster approval. In essence, what it's saying is that the government doesn't trust it's citizens and is thus arming itself to fight them when the government decides that they're getting out of line. Again, that's for a dedicated "bomber" in traditional "strategic bomber" sense. The Cylons are likely to be space based, and if not, what can a bomber do that a strike equipped Raptor can't (other than more efficiently)?

Schulz189 wrote:
If we consider stationary space targets as well as hardened ground facilities I can see a number of possible uses. While a ground target could be destroyed from orbit the chances for unintended damage and fratricide would place this option lower on the list of tactical responses. In Razor the Cylons are seen making bombing runs with on Pegasus while it is docked and essentially part of the shipyard.


Dropping a mass on a surface location is a simple matter of physics and mathematics and it has the benefit of being clean and non-polluting. What we saw in Razor was the Cylons doing a "Grand Tour" and shooting up anything they could find and they did it in a way that was in line with their doctrine: The baseship provides support while the Raiders are the maneuver and assault elements. Even when we saw the baseships in combat, they didn't launch a ton of ship to ship ordnance; that was mainly the purview of the Raider.

The Colonial doctrine seems quite different; the battlestar (or other capital combatant) directly engages the enemy capital combatant while the air wing acts as a BARCAP (Barrier Combat Air Patrol) to intercept the Raiders or missiles.

Schulz189 wrote:
I think the bombers might have more application is large scale ship battles then they are being given credit for. In truth it is the vipers and raptor that I see has having limited or no practical use in a slug out between battlestars due to their limited payloads and range, and yet there they are. I suppose I can't forge that one nuke launched from a raider damaged the Galactica significantly in the mini-series. The inclusion of stand off weapons and smart weaponry on a larger scale than what could be employed by a viper or a raptor could significantly damage either a battlestar or a baseship; particularly to their external equipment such as weapons mounts, thrusters, launch bay /tubes, and the like. The strike you Habu's carried out in the Golden Sword exercise would be an example of a successful application of this tactical employment. Any loss of these facilities would degrade a combatant's capability even if it didn't destroy it outright This 'force multiplier' would be a significant advantage to the parent vessel. A few could even give a smaller ship a significant and credible threat at long range to larger opponents, although in small numbers they would be like a glass hammer....hard hitting but used only once.


The Habu strike on Banshee by Cricket and Boxcar was really one of opportunity and was presented as a "perfect storm" situation. I'm not sure that in a general fleet engagement that such an attack would be viable as the attack itself was launched from absolute point blank range for the missiles used.

Beyond unique cases, when it comes to explosives, consider that if you wanted to put a hole in Galactica's armor you would need at least a warhead that was 72 centimeters in diameter. This is for a HEAT shaped charge, where such a charge will generally penetrate 7 CD (Charge Diameters, i.e. the diameter of the warhead) of common hardened armor. If we postulate that Galactica's armor is something a bit more than that, say an iridium/tungsten/element x alloy that offers increased protection per centimeter when compared to basic steel armor, then that 72 centimeter shaped charge may wind up being 1.4 meters to 3 meters in diameter (depending on how effective the armor is, but at a baseline you'd expect it to be about twice common homogeneous rolled armor).

To launch something with a 1.5m diameter, you're looking at a weapon that would probably be on the order of 15 meters long...you'd look like one of those funky torpedo craft the Gamilons tried to use against Yamato/Argo.

The last point is that by and large, small craft just didn't seem to be that much of a threat (except when the Raiders would swarm) during the show. They were a thread to the thin skinned ships.

Schulz189 wrote:
There are other types of munitions that could be employed designed to attack electronic systems or say destabilize a jump field. A high speed penetrator loaded with a flammable agent or thermite would hardly be welcome aboard a Colonial or Cylon ship.

When I first was introduced to your Peltast class I was expecting it to have some form of capability along these lines.


The problem is that you need to get through the armor, and canonically (see "The Science Of Battlestar Galactica") Galactica's armor was 5 meters thick. By the time you've got something going fast enough to punch through the armor it will cause more damage if the entire item is a kinetic penetrator than if part of the mass is converted to a high explosive or other pyrotechnic. Missiles and explosives are good if the impact velocities are far less than 10,000 m/s, while above that, just make it a solid shot and you'll do more damage.

_________________
Kurt

Click the link to read Lady Hecate off line in PDF, .epub, or Kindle formats: http://www.bsg94.org/downloads/index.html
Click here for the Colonial Warbook for Lady H: http://www.photobucket.com/colonial_warbook


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Think Tank
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 11:25 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2015 6:30 pm
Posts: 188
kfeltenberger wrote:
Schulz189 wrote:
kfeltenberger wrote:
Good idea!

Right now I'm looking at what could be done with a small pod (one that would fit on a Titan, Athena's Point, Arctic, or on one of Proteus four stations) that would be capable of minor repair and maintenance. I'm thinking there would be two versions;

1. This would be a full pod and probably have minimal outside changes. Inside, however, it would be filled with machine shops, 3d printers, raw materials, spares, and the support infrastructure (quarters, mess facilities, recreation, etc.) to support the crew assigned to the workshops.

2. This would have several articulated legs that fold out, probably with three or four joints beyond where they connect to the pod itself, wide magnetic "feet", and a series of gantries and cranes that would face whatever it was "standing" on. Like the other pod, this would also have some workshops, stores, and support infrastructure, but it would also have a flight deck (maybe not through the entire pod) to handle Raptors, Shuttle sized ships, and work bees. This pod would also have limited maneuverability to operate independently from it's mothership as it would secure itself to a damaged ship to replace hull plates, engines, turrets, etc.

Thoughts?


I really like idea #2, my one question would be does it operate with a crew or autonomously? Given the Colonials disdain for AI I would expect some serious limitations on its independence, pity as an R@ unit seemed so beneficial in the Star Wars universe. I my mind I see something along the lines of the Republic walker from Star Wars with robotic repair stations and a cargo capacity and crane for hull plating. The tools/arms would be operated like the modern tele-surgery systems from inside the 'pod.' Is that what your leaning towards?


The pod would be manned as you would still want to have artificers to do the work. By putting the actual work crews' and engineers' living quarters within the pod, you don't have to increase your air traffic control needs by constantly shuttling workers to and from the work site.



This is what I was describing. how close is it to what you had in mind Kurt?

Image

Not really sure where the walker came from (its been sitting in a file on my machine for months), but some of the parts are from Canis and the back rack is from your mobile shipyard
Paul

_________________
Paul

Let this be the hour when we draw swords together.
Fell deeds awake.
Now for wrath,
now for ruin,
and the red dawn.
Forth, Eorlingas!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Think Tank
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:48 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2011 1:00 am
Posts: 4494
Location: Battlestar Hecate BSG-94
Something similar to that, but with longer legs and the actual work arms on the underside (the part facing the damage). Granted, the pod I'm thinking about is quite a bit larger, but the concept is there.

_________________
Kurt

Click the link to read Lady Hecate off line in PDF, .epub, or Kindle formats: http://www.bsg94.org/downloads/index.html
Click here for the Colonial Warbook for Lady H: http://www.photobucket.com/colonial_warbook


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Think Tank
PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 5:08 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:00 am
Posts: 602
Schulz189 wrote:
kfeltenberger wrote:
Given the Colonial technology, would it make more sense for them to help build an orbital shipyard instead?

If not, then for a warship, I'd probably limit production to a handful of yards; Newport News and Philadelphia Navy Yard (possibly the Brooklyn Navy Yard if it was refitted), two or three in the UK, the Russian shipyard in the Crimea, the Daewoo yards in South Korea, and possibly one of the Chinese yards. However, the US yards and possibly one of the UK yards would be the leads since they have the most experience building large warships while the others are mostly commercial or smaller (destroyer/frigate) combatants.


I would have to agree with "kfeltenberger", any ground based shipyard would almost have to be for small ships as the lift capability of the construction equipment would be complicated by gravity making the construction far less cost effective and difficult for larger ships. I am assuming that much of the construction would be modular and require some pretty fine finesse in aligning the sections, zero, or better low G environments would make that sort of construction much easier and allow for larger modules. Possibly and asteroid base or shipyard would be better and allow for the 'shirt sleeve' environment that I believe you are looking for.

Since a modern aircraft carrier is smaller then one of Galactica her flightpods, small is relative.
I mean, what the Colonials find small, would be big for us or would you guys say the Iowa or Yamato classes are small?
But if we look at it from Colonial size perspectives, any ship would be more like a MTB or submarine, in size.
Which is also the role any such warship builded in a Earth shipyard, should have.
You would probably get something along the lines of the Arcadia, from the movie Harlock Space Pirate, in terms of concept, as a space based verion of a submarine anex gunship.
Deployment tactic: Wolfpack.
kfeltenberger wrote:
Schulz189 wrote:
kfeltenberger wrote:
Good idea!

Right now I'm looking at what could be done with a small pod (one that would fit on a Titan, Athena's Point, Arctic, or on one of Proteus four stations) that would be capable of minor repair and maintenance. I'm thinking there would be two versions;

1. This would be a full pod and probably have minimal outside changes. Inside, however, it would be filled with machine shops, 3d printers, raw materials, spares, and the support infrastructure (quarters, mess facilities, recreation, etc.) to support the crew assigned to the workshops.

2. This would have several articulated legs that fold out, probably with three or four joints beyond where they connect to the pod itself, wide magnetic "feet", and a series of gantries and cranes that would face whatever it was "standing" on. Like the other pod, this would also have some workshops, stores, and support infrastructure, but it would also have a flight deck (maybe not through the entire pod) to handle Raptors, Shuttle sized ships, and work bees. This pod would also have limited maneuverability to operate independently from it's mothership as it would secure itself to a damaged ship to replace hull plates, engines, turrets, etc.

Thoughts?


I really like idea #2, my one question would be does it operate with a crew or autonomously? Given the Colonials disdain for AI I would expect some serious limitations on its independence, pity as an R@ unit seemed so beneficial in the Star Wars universe. I my mind I see something along the lines of the Republic walker from Star Wars with robotic repair stations and a cargo capacity and crane for hull plating. The tools/arms would be operated like the modern tele-surgery systems from inside the 'pod.' Is that what your leaning towards?


The pod would be manned as you would still want to have artificers to do the work. By putting the actual work crews' and engineers' living quarters within the pod, you don't have to increase your air traffic control needs by constantly shuttling workers to and from the work site.

Something along the lines of my Pandora, in my Fortune Hunters page?
The pod is more of a vacuum, magnetic and gravitic seal-clamp then anything else, but I think you guys could use it as a basis.
The Mercury class it's workshop is also why I filled up the space between the Pandora her engines.
Really should update the engines, among other things.

Another option would be for you guys take a close look at the Gimini freighter, one could be convert into a workship by simpy replacing the cargo containers with something else.
While two Gimini's with their undersides pointed to each other, might be useable as the sides of a mobile dock, if with the right modifications.
Heck, I think you could even use a Gimini as a pocket carrier, with the right conversion pack.
If you could ad a factory ship it's factory systems to a Gimini repair ship, then you could dock a mining ship with topside mounted argo-domes on top (if with retractable armor plating for the domes).
kfeltenberger wrote:
MisterMord wrote:
On the outside the Engineering version of the Mercury class would differ little from the base design with the sole exception being the third pod, so on the outside nothing really changes at all which includes its armament and its weaponry.


Then why not go with a completely new design so that the slipways for heavy ships can focus on them? Also, if you build a ship that looks like a battlestar, the Cylons will treat it as such and you'll need the same level (or probably more) of escort tail to keep it safe.

kfeltenberger wrote:
MisterMord wrote:
Back when Game Designer's Workshop brought out Traveller: The New Era (spit!), they also brought out the Aurora class clippers. The concept was, IMO, pretty cool (and one of the few worthwhile ideas from that edition of the game): The ship was essentially a long spine with engines at one end and a command superstructure at the other. Along the spine were attachment points for various modules that could be added over the course of a few days to a week or so in Class A or B port. Cargo, quarters, subordinate craft, power plant boosters, weapons, etc, could all be added.

Here are some images of the concept based on the canonical Aurora class clipper. The ship was small by BSG scales, probably a bit larger than Gemenon Traveller and maybe a bit smaller than Semiramis.

http://s101.photobucket.com/user/jfetters/library/


This design could probably work as the base model though it would have to be enlarged quite a bit, maybe to roughly the size of a Valkyrie/Mars class Light Battlestar at the most and just go from there.


One thing to remember with any sort of modular ship is that when it is damaged in combat, the damage is likely going to be more serious than if the ship was built from the keel up with the capabilities rather than being a bunch of modules bolted onto a frame. That's one of the reasons why the emergency carriers were called "rattlestars".

A Gimini class freighter is still the best bet for such a modular ship.
You just need more Gimini ships when you want to lenghten her a bit.
Remove the cargo containers and the engine, suddenly you have room to place a coupke of Battlestar engines.
See where I am going with this?


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 19 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group