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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 9:24 am 
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I'm just trying to figure out the size of a fleet for a large military manufacturing government - the


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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 5:41 pm 
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If this is going to be within the Star Wars universe, with the Empire (or Republic, or whatever the dipsticks on Coruscant are calling themselves), then the military force numbers are very, very low. Figure between .8% to ~2.5% of the population should be either active duty or reserves. In the US, this number sits about 1% split between the Active duty forces (Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines) and Reserves/National Guard.

One thing to consider is that as things become more technological, the larger the support infrastructure is going to be compared to the actual combat forces. The total force numbers may stay at ~3 million for the US, but the number of actual "In Harm's Way" personnel has decreased while the support numbers have increased.

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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 2:46 am 
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kfeltenberger wrote:
If this is going to be within the Star Wars universe, with the Empire (or Republic, or whatever the dipsticks on Coruscant are calling themselves), then the military force numbers are very, very low. Figure between .8% to ~2.5% of the population should be either active duty or reserves. In the US, this number sits about 1% split between the Active duty forces (Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines) and Reserves/National Guard.

One thing to consider is that as things become more technological, the larger the support infrastructure is going to be compared to the actual combat forces. The total force numbers may stay at ~3 million for the US, but the number of actual "In Harm's Way" personnel has decreased while the support numbers have increased.


I agree with your point in the second paragraph, all the ships will have significantly reduce crew requirements and passenger space compared to similar sized ships from Imperial/New Repulbic/Republic designs. I also re-figured the population statistics as such that with a much smaller population, Here is I've done so far:

Population, 7 major population centers (planets) and 12 colonies
~5,530,000,000 and ~110,000

And I will not have a separate police force; but a sub-branch of the military that uses the reserves for policing.

Military enrollment active service, 0.15% population: ~8,295,000
Military trained population, 0.6% (reserves): ~33,180,000


Primary exports:
Civilian and military starships, star ship parts (shield generators, reactors/power cores,) star ship weapons.

Secondary exports:
Computer systems
repulsorcraft
alcohols


Now, for the actual fleets; will stay at nine in total, one for each of the seven major systems, one fleet for the primary military bases and one reserve fleet (split up among the major systems and colonies)


I did some math, and the number of starfighters carried by 12 star destroyers and the total length of the ships (not counting starfighters) are slightly in favor of the 12 star destroyers, but otherwise the ratios are equal, with the 12 ISD having a larger crew by a somewhat large factor.

each


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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 2:52 pm 
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Joz wrote:
So can anyone see any reason why I shouldn't just drop the standing military force down to 2-3 million, 2 million for naval, 1 million for army. ?


There are a couple reasons why you don't want to cut things to the bone.

1. Training and cadre: You're going to be replacing most of your enlisted personnel ever 4-8 years (this doesn't mean every individual is replaced, simply the total number of new recruits in that time period will equal the total number of enlisted/NCO separated from the service during the same period), and your officer corps probably ever 8-14 years. You're going to want not just breadth (i.e., enough people to man all the stations), but depth (lots of ready replacements). It's easy enough to build a new ship or repair one that's damaged, but having qualified crew is vital. The Japanese and Germans faced this problem in WW2 because they rarely rotated their experienced people away from the front lines and most of them died there. When their replacements arrived, they lacked the experience to allow them to survive, let alone prevail over the enemy.

2. The military (at least in the US) is the single largest post secondary education training institution in the country. A recruit can join at 18 and when they separate 4 years later, they could have all the technical skills necessary to land a good job, as well as practical experience. Many airline pilots learned to fly in the service. And so on.

3. Civil stability. You mentioned that there wouldn't be a police force as we know it and that the military would handle those tasks. My thoughts on the matter, I think it's a very, very bad idea, not withstanding, you're going to need a lot of people. The last year that I could find statistics for, 2004, showed that with a population just under 300,000 the US had ~874,000 sworn law enforcement personnel. This doesn't count all the administrative people, meter maids, and other police employees (uniformed and non-uniformed), which would probably double that number. When there's a natural disaster or civil disturbance (Katrina or the King riots, for example), you're going to need both police and military forces to step in and help stabilize the situation.

I really think that ~1% of total population in the active and reserve military forces is a good number, though I'd feel more comfortable if it was closer to 1.5% or 2% (with 60% or so of the extra going into the reserves). For policing, .34% at a bare minimum to perhaps .5% or if the polity leans more to the authoritarian perhaps .6% to .65%.

Kurt

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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 12:52 pm 
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So how would an 8,000,000 do? 8,000,000 enlisted military personnel is a lot of manpower. And I think addressing your #1, would be an appropriately large number of both experienced and non-experienced personnel.

For #2, good point, never thought of that, and I think I can settle with a 0.6% police force. This is a very intrinsically low-crime society at worst you have people who drive to fast, and maybe a murderer or two every couple of tens of millions of people; so a police force of ~33,000,000 should be able to handle that.


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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 2:51 pm 
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Joz wrote:
So how would an 8,000,000 do? 8,000,000 enlisted military personnel is a lot of manpower. And I think addressing your #1, would be an appropriately large number of both experienced and non-experienced personnel.


For a population roughly what we have on Earth today, not bad. :-) For the original numbers, it would be on the low side.

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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 6:00 pm 
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It just have a hard time justifying such a large military population, considering relative low use army, and only 270,000 needed for the navy to operate the ships. Add in another 400,000 or so for space stations, bases and administrative, and then another 20,000-30,000 for crewing resupply, support and special purpose ships.
And I readjusted the population down to 5.5 billion (somehow, I wrote 23 trillion originally, and it was supposed to be 23 billion.)


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 4:37 am 
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Is this for sector fleet or total imperial fleet. I had diffrent scale.

Since Empire controls large part of the galaxy i would say this to be my number:

Imperial star destroyer(I,II): 16,000
Victory class destroyer: 7,000
Lancer class frigate: 20,000
Carrack class frigate: 10,500
Nebulon B frigate: 5,500
P-Patrol ships: 32,000
Executor class super star destroyer: 200
Imobilizer class: 1,700
CR90 corvette: 10,000
Venator class star cruiser(left overs): 2,000

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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 7:55 am 
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Zagoreni wrote:
Is this for sector fleet or total imperial fleet. I had diffrent scale.

Since Empire controls large part of the galaxy i would say this to be my number:

Imperial star destroyer(I,II): 16,000
Victory class destroyer: 7,000
Lancer class frigate: 20,000
Carrack class frigate: 10,500
Nebulon B frigate: 5,500
P-Patrol ships: 32,000
Executor class super star destroyer: 200
Imobilizer class: 1,700
CR90 corvette: 10,000
Venator class star cruiser(left overs): 2,000


This appears to be for a corporate government, and not a directly-controlled Imperial piece of territory.

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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 11:44 am 
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ReaperMan wrote:
Zagoreni wrote:
Is this for sector fleet or total imperial fleet. I had diffrent scale.

Since Empire controls large part of the galaxy i would say this to be my number:

Imperial star destroyer(I,II): 16,000
Victory class destroyer: 7,000
Lancer class frigate: 20,000
Carrack class frigate: 10,500
Nebulon B frigate: 5,500
P-Patrol ships: 32,000
Executor class super star destroyer: 200
Imobilizer class: 1,700
CR90 corvette: 10,000
Venator class star cruiser(left overs): 2,000


This appears to be for a corporate government, and not a directly-controlled Imperial piece of territory.


This is correct, the


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 2:40 pm 
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Slightly off topic Joz, but where about in MN is your friend?

Back OT: 200 SSD's is pretty damn high, no matter if it's the resource heavy Empire or a privately funded corporate government. There simply weren't very many ever made.

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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 3:46 pm 
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Raz wrote:
Slightly off topic Joz, but where about in MN is your friend?


he's up in Duluth right now.


Quote:
Back OT: 200 SSD's is pretty damn high, no matter if it's the resource heavy Empire or a privately funded corporate government. There simply weren't very many ever made.


Agreeed, but then again, the Empire did build two death stars, multiple world devastators, and even the fantastically expensive sun crusher.


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 4:43 pm 
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Joz wrote:
Raz wrote:
Slightly off topic Joz, but where about in MN is your friend?


he's up in Duluth right now.


Quote:
Back OT: 200 SSD's is pretty damn high, no matter if it's the resource heavy Empire or a privately funded corporate government. There simply weren't very many ever made.


Agreeed, but then again, the Empire did build two death stars, multiple world devastators, and even the fantastically expensive sun crusher.


True, but what about manning requirements? 200 SSD's is going to take a huge bite out of your manpower pool.

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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 4:56 pm 
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ReaperMan wrote:
Joz wrote:
Raz wrote:
Slightly off topic Joz, but where about in MN is your friend?


he's up in Duluth right now.


Quote:
Back OT: 200 SSD's is pretty damn high, no matter if it's the resource heavy Empire or a privately funded corporate government. There simply weren't very many ever made.


Agreeed, but then again, the Empire did build two death stars, multiple world devastators, and even the fantastically expensive sun crusher.


True, but what about manning requirements? 200 SSD's is going to take a huge bite out of your manpower pool.


According to the wookiepedia, the Executors had 280,000 personnel and then another 38,000 in ground forces. But if I recall, only 6 executor-class were built, two eclipses, and a dozen or so other "Super" Star Destroyers. So I agree with the 200 count being to high.


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 5:20 pm 
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Joz wrote:
Raz wrote:
Slightly off topic Joz, but where about in MN is your friend?


he's up in Duluth right now.


Ah, I'm just north of the Twin Cities myself.


Quote:
Back OT: 200 SSD's is pretty damn high, no matter if it's the resource heavy Empire or a privately funded corporate government. There simply weren't very many ever made.




Quote:
Agreeed, but then again, the Empire did build two death stars, multiple world devastators, and even the fantastically expensive sun crusher.


And then people wonder why they didn't make more SSD's... :damnfunny

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