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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:43 pm 
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50Stone wrote:
The Vipers we see in the show have to solely rely on their VTOL generating capabilities in an atmosphere to land or even for that matter to fly slowly as the wings are just too small to generate lift.


I think the wings are plenty large enough to generate adequate lift if past real world designs are any indication. The X-3 Stiletto and F-104 Starfighter both have very small wings for their overall size and had no trouble flying at even slower speeds.

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Any failure of or damage to the VTOL system would probably cause a Viper to be severely damaged or possibly destroyed attempting any other landing in a gravity well, even on the type of runway we use today as even if the fighter does manage to set down on the skids without ripping off it's landing gear as skids do not provide any direction control (wheels roll in a particular direction!) the Viper is going to drift all over the place possibly rotating or moving off the runway (especially as they are generally cambered to facilitate rain run off) and end up in the grass somewhere, not to mention skids don't have brakes, only friction.


Still, we used skids on some of the most successful X-Planes; X-1, X-2, X-15, X-24, and let's also not forget that both the Ar-234 and Me-263 both used skids as well. Are they idea? Not really. Do they work? Yes.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:06 pm 
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kfeltenberger wrote:
50Stone wrote:
The Vipers we see in the show have to solely rely on their VTOL generating capabilities in an atmosphere to land or even for that matter to fly slowly as the wings are just too small to generate lift.


I think the wings are plenty large enough to generate adequate lift if past real world designs are any indication. The X-3 Stiletto and F-104 Starfighter both have very small wings for their overall size and had no trouble flying at even slower speeds.

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Any failure of or damage to the VTOL system would probably cause a Viper to be severely damaged or possibly destroyed attempting any other landing in a gravity well, even on the type of runway we use today as even if the fighter does manage to set down on the skids without ripping off it's landing gear as skids do not provide any direction control (wheels roll in a particular direction!) the Viper is going to drift all over the place possibly rotating or moving off the runway (especially as they are generally cambered to facilitate rain run off) and end up in the grass somewhere, not to mention skids don't have brakes, only friction.


Still, we used skids on some of the most successful X-Planes; X-1, X-2, X-15, X-24, and let's also not forget that both the Ar-234 and Me-263 both used skids as well. Are they idea? Not really. Do they work? Yes.
I've actually had the privilege of sitting in an F-104, and it's quite the experience. I also think the Viper's wings should be able to provide adequate lift considering the Viper is rather small compared to modern day fighter jets.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:40 am 
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But in NuBSG, have we any reason, what so ever, to presume VTOL capacity in a 1G environment?

Wait, the planet with the old temple pointing to Earth. Didn't they have Vipers on the ground in rough fields without any landing strip there?


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:48 am 
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gryphon wrote:
But in NuBSG, have we any reason, what so ever, to presume VTOL capacity in a 1G environment?

Wait, the planet with the old temple pointing to Earth. Didn't they have Vipers on the ground in rough fields without any landing strip there?


We have every reason to believe it. They were at the algae planet and New Caprica, and IIRC, on Earth (both of them). If some of the ships that we saw on New Caprica could land, and most of them were aerodynamic only in the broadest sense, then I think Vipers and Raptors wouldn't have any problems.

Besides, it makes tactical sense. If we could fit VTOL capability into an F-22 and not lose any performance (in any way whatsoever), we would.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:06 am 
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kfeltenberger wrote:
We have every reason to believe it. They were at the algae planet and New Caprica, and IIRC, on Earth (both of them). If some of the ships that we saw on New Caprica could land, and most of them were aerodynamic only in the broadest sense, then I think Vipers and Raptors wouldn't have any problems.


We also see Mk VIIs in a Colonial airbase way back in Act of Contrition flashbacks, not to mention N7242C in Adama's picture with his kids, clearly on tarmac planetside.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:36 am 
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I was playing around with a possible earlier mk of Viper for my Pirates to have, they can't all have Mk2s or 7s.

What do you think? Mk4 or 5 perhaps?

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:55 am 
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I actually like that, but I'd sharpen some of the edges a bit. That's just me, though.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:27 pm 
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Looks pretty nice, 50Stone. Reminds me a little of the old Mk IV and Mk V Vipers I did years ago.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:56 pm 
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Cause I was bored!

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:56 pm 
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Does it have to be a Mark of Viper though? Perhaps a different name? It seems to be more of a contemporary of the Mk 2/3 Viper, but not evolutionary enough to continue the line towards the Mk 7.

A different fighter of the Cylon War era, maybe one that the Fleet either rejected or decommissioned after the war when switching to an all Viper force. That could explain why the pirates were able to get a hold of them.

Either way, it look sleek and maneuverable, like a fighter should. Good job 50Stone.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:57 pm 
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That Mk 1 is hot!


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:19 pm 
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The mkiV is only really a wing change and cockpit canopy difference over the B&C model MkIII I was trying to inch it towards the MkVII which let's face it, is soooo different from the MkII that it is quite frankly a different model and deserves the Viper name a lot less than my drawing.

The way I see it, or in my universe at least, each mark isn't so different from the previous.
Mk2 has more sleek lines but basically the same design as the 1.
Mk3 introduces new engines
Mk4 new wings and cockpit
Mk5 new engines again, similar in design to mk7 angular rather than round
Mk6 new smaller fuselage
Mk7 new wings, streamlined hull, additional armament

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:24 pm 
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KombatWombat wrote:
kfeltenberger wrote:
50Stone wrote:
The Vipers we see in the show have to solely rely on their VTOL generating capabilities in an atmosphere to land or even for that matter to fly slowly as the wings are just too small to generate lift.


I think the wings are plenty large enough to generate adequate lift if past real world designs are any indication. The X-3 Stiletto and F-104 Starfighter both have very small wings for their overall size and had no trouble flying at even slower speeds.


I've actually had the privilege of sitting in an F-104, and it's quite the experience. I also think the Viper's wings should be able to provide adequate lift considering the Viper is rather small compared to modern day fighter jets.


For the record - the F-104 was an "Interceptor" - NOT a "Fighter." In plain terms it was designed more to shoot down bombers. It was designed to launch, climb to alt very fast and head out to intercept the enemy aircraft as far away from it's target as possible. That was the reason for the very small wings - it wasn't meant to maneuver but to go very fast in a straight line.

How does this translate to the Viper? Well in space it's not a real problem or might not even apply. In a planet's atmosphere - it could have the same problem as the F-104 in not being able to maneuver as well as an aircraft designed to fight in the atmosphere but it has the Reaction Control System as a back-up and most likely can use this in "Viffing" similar to how the Harriers are able to do while dogfighting.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:29 pm 
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The Vipers wings are also sloped way too far downward to develop any real lift.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:57 am 
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The later model European F-104s were being used as ground attack and antiship strike fighters! I always thought that completely silly, and the Germans sort of agreed, since their nickname for the F-104 was The Lawn Dart! But it must have worked to one degree or another, right?

Referring back to Vipers being VTOL. Vipers on an air base with runways fails to convince me they are VTOL, skids or not. (The skids are silly enough as it is in atmosphere, however much sense they make in vacuum.) Since we see them pushing Vipers around with just deck crew, no tow cart at all, even skidded Vipers must have some sort of wheels, right?

As for landing on planets, did we ever see a Viper landed on a planet itself, and not somewhere that would serve as a runway or some sort? Like Helo's Raptor in the miniseries, it just plunked right down, and we see that happen a lot. But do we ever actually see a Viper do the same...or are we simply inferring it because the Raptor does it?

Edit: Here's a thought. I was looking over that new image that was released for the B&C Viper Mk.3. It doesn't seem to have any wheels either. So either it definitely IS VTOL capable...or it uses magnetic repulsion to lift it a fraction of an inch and thus can be pushed around the deck by a deck crew. I do see what could be something like 2/4/6 maneuvering or lift thrusters on the ventral thought. The only thing similar is a pair of them in the nose on the dorsal side as well.


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