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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 1:03 pm 
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Love them all Conan!


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:12 pm 
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(easily catches poorly aimed and thrown monkey wrench and throws back an unopened six-pack of beer and a military dictionary at Gryphon)

in 1987 I read an assessment that predicted in my lifetime the USAF will be building only one type of plane and it will perform all missions and we will need only 100 or so for the whole airforce, that brilliant DoD prophecy hasnt and probably wont come to pass thankfully...this is a pipe-dream because few if any fighters can perform AEW, Tanker, Deep-penetration Nuclear strike, as well as producing air dominance from the same platform...

F/A-18 Super Hornet is a jack of all trades and master of none, its not as good as an F-14 for CAP or Interception and its not as good at attack missions as an A-6 its a budgetary compromise thats still better than what anyone else has operational....I love the Hornet, I was a Marine, I also hate F/A-18 ( the US Navy got shafted) because its not a purebred at anything....I account for the F/A-18 as a Budgetary creation by penny-pinching politicians...who are mostly ignorant of the necessities of war-remember your weapon is manufactured by the lowest bidding contractor....

why the F-14 is better- simple it could carry the longest range most effective heavyweight AAM in the world...it could carry six and fire them simultaneously at 6 different targets (then fly back to the carrier and have your crewchief paint six "red stars" on your canopy below your name), it could loiter on station and dash to intercept better than an F-18, it had better operational ceiling, range and speed, its Radar had farther range...in short the F-18 is a great compromise, but its not the premier naval interceptor, at best it can target 2 targets at once at half the range...

the F/A-18 in BSG terms would be a fighter version of the Raptor-see not all that its cracked up to be, versus a dedicated fighter like a Sparrow/Raider Mk-II its toasted! actually thats not even right its even lighter than that...

Fighter Bombers can fight other planes and fill the attack role as well but they arent as good as a purely dedicated platform, look at the ww2 era British RAF Hawker Typhoon, designed as a fighter its engine performed poorly at altitude, so it was relegated to ground attack and anti-shipping missions at which it excelled thats my favorite fighter bomber...

Xraider the MK-VIII has a detachable FTL drive- thats a sweet detail I was unaware of, all my small craft ( in the campaign game) have FTL except Vipers earlier than the Mk-VII, doesnt do the fighters much good to accompany a Strike-Package when they cant jump with the Attack and EW birds...a stupid design inconsistency coontrived to make the show more dramatic

Colonial Military roughly has 80-90% commonality to modern US/Canadian/NATO terms and lexicon but definately more in common with US forces,

still the planes are fantastic even if you call them attack-perambulators it doesnt matter your work is excellant, just a pet peeve of mine (heres why), I have to read a lot of translated Russian/German/Chinese etc Military material and the inconsistencies in translation are at once both maddening, idiotic and a bit humourous sometimes...nothing whatever to do with your work...its creative as all hell...

now I wonder if I can kitbash a Thor Gunstars foreward hull to a Mercury-Centur and aft hull and attach different flight pods...or would it look like an abortion....

Whadda ya hear? :thumbsup


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 4:15 am 
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myrmidon, What about the de Havilland Mosquito. The RAF used these aircraft in mutable roles, from fighter bomber to night fighter.

The Mosquito was respected by all even the Luftwaffe


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 5:34 am 
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Do you have separate pictures of the large guns?


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 8:08 am 
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That's all entirely true Myr, but it doesn't change the fact that the F/A-18 IS doing all of that in the real world, and that the Viper might be a reflection of that in NBSG, possibly including a reflection of being a politically driven economical combat/attrition) unit. The colonial fleet, and the previous US Navy, would accept those loses, but the modern USN would never accept the losses we see in the show without doing something to adapt, which the Galactica RTF can't (or won't) do. The Viper MK VII was at least expected to be a highly superior unit to the Raider MK I, and at least on par with the Sparrow, which is certainly the case, so there isn't a need for dedicated interceptor, strike, and interdiction platforms in the colonial fleet, at least not from the civilian governments point of view, and the fleet is somewhat enamored of the Viper's first war successes, sort of passively choosing not to see its inherent, multirole based, flaws.

I agree, the Hornet is a glorified mud fighter, its at least better than 65% of fighter designs in service the world over, and equal to all but a handful of 4.5 and 5th generation models, but it is being used to do all of that work. Whats more, as the US could build this perfectly functional fighter in numbers only Russia and Chine could hope to match, it could walk all over every other military in existence, which equates to the 1CW Raider being out produced by the Viper 1/2/3, and them being able to out produce any pirate, merc or colonial force as well. It was only after the Cylons showed up with the Raider MK II that the pattern shifted, which is analogous to the "sudden" appearance of various SU-2X/3X models from Russia really. In the end, the Viper/Hornet is a multirole monster, both of which seem to rely on superior training, pilots, and team work to overcome what might be a marginally superior design.

And don't throw dictionaries at me, I had a PTSD flashback to high school (shudders) Webster's Dictionaries HURT!!! :shock:
(6 packs are perfectly acceptable though, built in pain killer abilities and all that. ) :thumbsup


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 12:26 pm 
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:thumbsup First of all the Mosquito -the wooden wonder was designed as a multi-role twin engine fighter bomber, it wasnt used to to fly CAP for a CBG, it was however one of the best planes of the last good war and was an excellant night-fighter and light bomber but I wouldnt want to put one up against an FW-190, good as it is it still isnt as good as a purebred single engine fighter in the air-combat role, that said the Mosquito was a superb platform able to do many things that werent even conceived for it when it was initially designed and it was made of wood! only 2 left in the whole world I believe... as a precocious child I built many a model of this one, I love the Tse-Tse variant with its 57mm anti-tank Mollins gun....Pilot skill made the difference when Mosquito's fought FW-190's and Me-109's which they did and won...sometimes...all true and your quite correct Conan, just remember the highest scoring ace of all time (352 kills) flew an obsolescent fighter on the eastern front, and the highest scoring allied ace is a Russian with only 56 kills....the war in the west was small compared to the war in Russia...I digress....

The Mosquito may be the exception that proves the rule-what a great plane, the Spitfire gets most of the press but I like the Hurricane and Mosquito much more, although late model Spitfire's were truly exceptional almost as good as the P-51D Mustang (complain or argue or agree all you want, the Mustang with its superb Rolls Royce Engine and awesome .50 caliber machineguns is the best all around fighter plane of the war and just as pretty-the guy down the street has one, the engine noise gives me goosebumps on my arms and the hair on the back of my neck stands up-jets never did that or do that for me-lucky guy)

The Herr Reichsmarshall ( Goering) also said "I knew the jig was up when I saw Mustangs in the sky over Berlin" good riddance fat Nazi windbag-frakker cheated the hangman...

remember how the Germans felt at the end ( if its a green plane its British, if its silver its American and if you cant see it, its German....LOL typical infantry humor)

F-18 is a budgetary compromise monster, agreed, but if we are going to say that there arent any specialised fighters/attack/EW variants then we are back to canon in NBSG, with a multi-role Fighter and a Multi-role bomber/EW/transport as the 2 combat planes of the fleet...the F-18 is a good light multi-role fighter, its not a purebred fighter unfortunately and as may actually happen economics may decide for the military what bastardised compromises will hap-hazardly fight their wars- :sad:

the F-18 is only doing the CAP and intercept roles because the threat environment has receded so much since the cold war and it probably wont ever be that intense again-hundreds of Landbased bombers launching thousands of cruise-missiles in waves at a CBG is probably a thing of the past if it wasnt the F/A-18 wouldnt be able to sufficiently handle the threat...trust me on this CBG defense (and naval power in general) is a thread all on its own, I could write a book on it....yeah F-18 is probably better than anything but SU-27/33/35 or maybe the Mig-29, I like the SU-27 series better though it was built to beat the F-15 so its probably equivalent...besides the Sukhoi is a very pretty plane... :thumbsup still its not as good a fighter as the F-14 or F-15 and its not as good an attack plane as a Tornado or A-6 Intruder and it cant do either the AEW, ASW or EW or light transport roles at all...thats why we still have Hawkeyes and Prowlers and Vikings on the Carriers...

I like the specialised Variants personally and I like the idea of a Strike-Viper, but its not a CAP/interceptor bird, its a bomber/attack plane...a fast one...faster than the Raptor on an equivalent mission profile( probably carrying a smaller warload though)-a big advantage for strike missions(get in fast attack get out faster -dont frak around and waste time fighting), I have figures/miniatures and stats for the following Colonial smallcraft:

Viper Mk-VII (Space Superiority-Fighter)
Viper-ASP-Recon (Reconaissance-light fighter)
Stealth Viper (Attack/reconnaissance)
CAG-Viper Mk-VIIC (Command Fighter)
Raptor Mk-II (EW/light bomber/light transport)
Cobra/Python Mk-II (Anti-shipping/Strike/Medium Bomber)
Adder Mk-III Assault Shuttle (Boarding/assault transport )
MLRS Shuttle Mk-II ( Transport/Medevac/minesweeping or laying)
Griffin/Hippogriff Patrol-Gunboat/Missileboat (Fast attack, patrol and light escort)

one thing I dont have is an AEW plane, I kind of use the Raptor as its inferred thats part of its job...

I have about as many types of Cylon smallcraft

I love specialised ships and planes they work the best for their designated job and if cost is no object and it isnt in my non RTF campaign -go great guns on the planes-never skimp on airpower, a plane for every job...

Gryphon I will happily throw six packs at anyone I like, and this stuff is just so entertaining to debate all in a good constructive educational creative exchange or whatever, I mean nothing nastily or offensive but I will call something out when it seems misplaced...hey I am wrong plenty of times, just not very much when it comes to Martial subjects-after all when it was your whole life you better know what your about... :blackeye sometimes I miss it but not too much...thankfully


Whadda ya hear? :thumbsup


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 12:36 pm 
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I always liked the Typhoon, it's one of the many overlooked planes of WW2, it and the American Thunderbolt rarely get a mention in history books of the European theatre, it's all about the Spitfires (beautiful planes) and Mustangs, then comes the Hurricanes and Lightnings.

Don't even think there's any remaining flight worthy, one thing I remember is the fact that a salvo from it's rockets was apparently the greater than a broadside from a WW2 Destroyer, imagine that coming down on your heads!

I guess I've always liked the less well known planes, Phoons, Jugs and from the Bent-wing Bastard, the ol' Corsair, or course that's just the fighters, if I could own any plane from that era it'd have to be a Mosquito though, and the Mitchel comes a distant second.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 12:46 pm 
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Oh the F4U Corsair is a beauty! yes 50 the Jug is my best friends fave and was a better ground attack plane than the mustang or spitfire, and you are indeed correct a salvo of 3 inch light-AP rockets (8) was as effective as a broadside from a light destroyer just less range and accuracy and the 5 inch rockets were absolutely devastating...

see the pictures of the Mosquito rocket attack on Gestapo Headquarters in Oslo Norway circa 1943-44 they fired rockets in through the windows of the 3 story building! think its Oslo might have been Trondheim....

Yeah "Hand of God" reminds me of 633 Squadron another great film good catch hadnt seen it in a while also "Dambusters" both good bomber movies....

the P-38 Lightning was also really sweet...

Whadda ya hear?


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 1:04 pm 
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There were a couple similar raids, one was Oslo another was Copenhagen, probably the very first precision strike ever attempted, did they not also bomb the walls of a prison in Amiens to let more resistance fighters escape.

The Mitchel did a lot of the same sort of missions I think low-level precision attacks, but Mosquito was the varsity.

Mosquitos also did a lot of Pathfinder work with the big bombers, going in first and dropping markers on targets, I read a book on em ages ago, what astonished me is they used to hang around and remark mid attack if the spots went out or drifted.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 1:07 pm 
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sorry computer went nuts

frakkin toaster

didnt mean to double post...

also the FW-190D (long nose) Focke-Wulfe is probably the coolest and best German fighter of the war, but they made so many types so lots to love in that war...listen to me!

the Italians made pretty planes that werent great and had a real lack of firepower

the Japanese made some real losers too but the Zero was outstanding early on, and the Russians made some real junk, but the great ones are easily remembered becasue they stood out...

if I could have only one plane from ww2, B-17 for a bomber (not the best choice but sentimentally a fave) and either a Corsair, a Hurricane IIc or a P-51D Mustang

More Vipers Raptors and other Colonial smallcraft please!
More Cylon ships of any and all types please!

thanks all

Whadda ya hear? :thumbsup


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 1:09 pm 
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Yes Prison raid at Amiens France in 1944 was also a Mosquito mission

Great stuff 50stone eh?

remark the targets mid-raid, get out! no way thats insane, I believe you...


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 2:34 pm 
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The problem is that people seem to think that the P-38 and the P-51, also the P-47 were brilliant, but most forget that with the original Pratt and Whitney engines, they were pants, it was only after we threw in Merlin's that they became good, then allowed P&W to make a version of the Merlin for the US craft

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 2:53 pm 
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Kevin W. wrote:
Do you have separate pictures of the large guns?


No I don


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 2:55 pm 
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Actually, the P-51 was the only U.S. fighter to have a Packard built Merlin to replace It's Allison v-12 engine. The P-38 performed wonderfully with twin Allisons and the heart of the P-47 was a 14 cylinder Wright Cyclone radial that would be used on the B-29!! The Thunderbolt was a classic case of "give it a big enough engine, and it'll do the job" It was the fastest piston engine aircraft of WW2 (level flight).


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 3:05 pm 
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I should stop trying to make logical arguments when suffering flu, migraine and a few other sicknesses

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