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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:43 pm 
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(I'm really trying to stall starting my SQL homework...)

Walking the dog tonight, I started pondering some numbers that we've been given as "canon" in the BSG universe. First, let's look at population. There are two sources for the population, one ~29 billion and another ~50 billion. Either way, the primary worlds (Caprica, Canceron, Tauron, Virgon, Leonis) are settled somewhat close to what Earth is today, or has been over the past 200 years. Using either number, that's a lot of people.

Keep that in mind as we look at the scenes that were filmed on Caprica after the attack. Initially, we see Helo (and later with Sharon) running around the woods in the rain, then the skies clear, and we have...blue skies! As we advance the timeline and Starbuck shows up, there is yet to be any sort of climatic changes nor does the ecosystem appear to be negatively impacted. Push the timeline forward a bit more, and in Downloaded we see that most of the infrastructure seems relatively intact. Move things forward once again, to when the fleet sent the rescue teams back for Anders and his resistance cell, and they're in an old growth forest that looks pristine with no fallout damage.

A far cry from the nuclear wasteland we should have seen given the number of weapons that were deployed.

Now, back to the population.

Where are all the people? If the air is breathable, and people aren't dying from radiation sickness, then were are all the people that weren't in the population or infrastructure centers?

One suggestion was that the Cylons used neutron, or enhanced radiation, weapons, and that's certainly possible. But still, short of blanketing the world, people would have survived.

That's thought 1.

Thought 2, goes back to trying to reconcile comments made in the mini-series with information that was later made canon.

First, the population. The population was drastically increased from the mini-series.

Second, the original premise, that I've been able to figure out, is that the mini-series had all the "colonies" on one or maybe two or three worlds within the same solar system. Yet, when we look at the canonical maps, we see four systems with twelve worlds and numerous smaller sub-colony worlds.

These two feed the third issue: Fleet size. Given a single system, "120 battlestars" makes some sense, but only barely given the population numbers. In any modern navy, planners plan on one third of the fleet being "on station", one third in transit to or from station, or training up for deployment, and one third in refit. This would leave the Colonies with 40 battlestars "on duty", with the potential to surge maybe another 30 or so in an emergency given some time. For one or two worlds, close together, in one system, this could work. For 12 worlds, numerous smaller settled moonlets, and spread across four large systems? It becomes hard to grasp. For example, if each world was equally defended, that would require at least 36 battlestars active at one time (we know there were at least three over Caprica from "The Plan"). But...this number is actually much higher because we see a couple of shattered battlestars near Caprica as Helo and Boomer approach the planet. That would imply that the number is at least 5 per planet, or 60 active battlestars, for 180 needed...

See Fleet Size (Again!) viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4215 for more details on why I think the mini-series numbers are woefully inaccurate and only apply to the Helios Alpha system.

Finally, civilian shipping. From the mini-series, flashback scenes, The Plan, Razor, and Caprica, we see that travel between worlds is as common as flying between major cities is today. In fact, some of the overhead scenes from the mini-series (when Roslyn is seeing the doctor and looking through the solarium) could be taken to imply that a lot of movement on a planetary scale is handled by some form of "ship".

Using contemporary shipping and transportation statistics, I extrapolated how much cargo we might see transported within the Colonies at any given moment (I think it was a two week window). See this thread for reference: viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3942&hilit=TEU

Here's a conclusion:

According to the BSGWiki, a Colonial Year is 365 days (see Colonial Calendar entry). Using this we get the following:

3,000,000,000 TEUs per year / 365 days (one year) = 8,219,178 TEUs delivered each day.
If a ship takes 2 weeks to transport its cargo from the point of origin to the point of destination, then there will be the following number of TEUs “in the air” on any one day:

14 days x 8,219,178 TEUs = 115,068,492 TEUs
115,068,492 TEUs * 24 tons per TEU = 2,761,643,808 tons of goods

The Maersk E Class container ships, currently the largest ships in operation, can carry ~15,000 TEUs. If we use Emma Maersk, one of these ships, as the blueprint for the average Colonial cargo ship, then 7672 ships would be required to move the cargo that’s “in the air” over t two week span. On Earth, there are probably less than 50 ships of this capacity currently afloat, so while there may be some larger ships, I think there will also be quite a few thousand smaller ships, too.

Anyway, to wrap all this up, as I'm writing the Cylon attack on the Colonies for Lady H, I'm having trouble reconciling the numbers. The Colonial Fleet, given the budgets, would be enormous, and as in Lady H, a fair bit would not have the CNP upgrade on "the day", especially given the development cycle. Then there's the population on the ground and the lack of lasting ecological damage or signs of climate change (nuclear winter, etc.). Finally, with the number of ships in the air at any one time, it would seem to imply that something more than about five dozen ships survived.

Oh...last thing. Let's talk food. Those agricultural ships...if they use techniques we have today, can produce a lot, a *LOT* of food... See: viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3919&start=0

And now, I have to face the peril that is my homework...

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Kurt

Click the link to read Lady Hecate off line in PDF, .epub, or Kindle formats: http://www.bsg94.org/downloads/index.html
Click here for the Colonial Warbook for Lady H: http://www.photobucket.com/colonial_warbook


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:23 pm 
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Yep, there should be a lot more humans (before and after the attacks) than we have information for. 50 Billion is way too small for the amount of space and technology at the Colonials' disposal.

I do think you are making a significant assumption about how the civilian shipping operates in the Colonies. We know Roslin rescued more ships than what she took to meet the Galactica, but most of them didn't have FTL (it seemed like only a third of the ships in her fleet jumped out when the raiders showed up). If we use the QM map as the layout of the Colonies, the majority of civilian shipping wouldn't need FTL. Imagine coastal freighter style instead of super freighter. Though that brings me to my assumption, but I feel it is a logical assumption given the Colonials' technology and how civilian shipping is heading on Earth present day.

There is likely a civilian version of the CNP, especially for FTL vessels. And while the CNP was a fleet program with all the high tech security procedures that can be conveniently circumvented by sexy robots, a civilian version would have much less security and Caprica Six or others could easy insert the Cylon shut down hack into it. In fact, I would assume the civilian version came first because it wouldn't need as much security vetting. If the civi CNP can reduce crew costs and track/broadcast the locations of the ship and other civilian shipping (which are things already done or being explored), nearly every shipping company in the Colonies would have it.

This to me means that a much higher percentage of civilian shipping would be destroyed during the fall. Even if we assume that a battlestar or other military vessel should be able to deactivate the CNP given enough time, it is doubtful that any but a handful of civilian ships would be able to.

At least that is how I head canon things.

As far as the fleet numbers go, I use "30 battlestars are a quarter of the fleet" as a rough guide, not an absolute. For example, 30 is roughly "a quarter" of 100, 120, 140, 160 ect. I personally figure 150 battlestars feel right, but I also feel battlestars are a small fraction of the total fleet size. I also don't consider Valkyrie or Osiris type vessels as battlestars, so the trio over Caprica wouldn't count in my book.

In that same vein, I don't think having a "defense force" always on guard over every planet is an effective strategy. If there are 40-50 battlestars "on duty," they are likely steaming on patrol routes along shipping lanes or conducting training exercises in deep space. That way, if the Cylons were to conduct a normal attack, the fleet could reasonably expect to muster a solid 25-30 battlestars plus their escorts as a rapid response force to any incursion while mobilizing whatever ships can be put to space. That's a fairly strong force.

You also make an assumption about the "on station," "training/transit," and "refit" cycles for the fleet based off tradition US Navy deployment cycles. However, I feel a reasonable argument could be made for reducing the "training/transit" cycle due to the rapid transit ability of BSG's FTL drive. Also, the "refit" percentage could probably be reduced based on how sturdy Galactica and Pegasus were during the series. I extrapolate this to mean that Colonial battlestars and other military vessels would require much less dock side work than a 1950's US destroyer, meaning that crew fatigue would be the limiting factor for vessel deployments. That could then be mitigated with a blue/gold crew rotation, which is done on nuclear powered submarines and the littoral combat ships.

Great thoughts, and its nice to have some good technical discussions on here again. Good luck on the homework.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:08 pm 
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TurboCoupeTurbo wrote:
Yep, there should be a lot more humans (before and after the attacks) than we have information for. 50 Billion is way too small for the amount of space and technology at the Colonials' disposal.

I do think you are making a significant assumption about how the civilian shipping operates in the Colonies. We know Roslin rescued more ships than what she took to meet the Galactica, but most of them didn't have FTL (it seemed like only a third of the ships in her fleet jumped out when the raiders showed up). If we use the QM map as the layout of the Colonies, the majority of civilian shipping wouldn't need FTL. Imagine coastal freighter style instead of super freighter. Though that brings me to my assumption, but I feel it is a logical assumption given the Colonials' technology and how civilian shipping is heading on Earth present day.


Agreed. Looking at what Roslin gathered, an estimate could be made that it was split ~50/50 between jump and non-jump craft. If the majority of shipping is the smaller variety, say half the size of Emma Maersk (used in the example), this would increase the numbers significantly.

TurboCoupeTurbo wrote:
There is likely a civilian version of the CNP, especially for FTL vessels. And while the CNP was a fleet program with all the high tech security procedures that can be conveniently circumvented by sexy robots, a civilian version would have much less security and Caprica Six or others could easy insert the Cylon shut down hack into it. In fact, I would assume the civilian version came first because it wouldn't need as much security vetting. If the civi CNP can reduce crew costs and track/broadcast the locations of the ship and other civilian shipping (which are things already done or being explored), nearly every shipping company in the Colonies would have it.

This to me means that a much higher percentage of civilian shipping would be destroyed during the fall. Even if we assume that a battlestar or other military vessel should be able to deactivate the CNP given enough time, it is doubtful that any but a handful of civilian ships would be able to.

At least that is how I head canon things.


I can’t agree completely with you on the civilian CNP for a couple reasons.

1. Cost. Civilian ships would only implement it at the very last moment before a hard “use it or see your navigation clearance revoked” date. Some will have, to field test it for the larger lines, but I think that most will wait until the very last minute before buying it, installing it, integrating it into the workflow, and training the crew on how to use it. Lot of cost there, especially for the large lines.

2. Time. BSG Wiki says that the CNP was developed over a two year period and just recently deployed. While the Fleet might have the resources to implement it in a majority of craft, I don’t see this from a civilian perspective. Two years is hardly enough time to go from RFP, to concept, to prototype, to deployed final version and have it fully tested. Civilians are going to want a track record of reliability before they adopt it wholesale, and as any software developer will tell you, two years from zero code to installed product on a major application is foolhardy.

3. Skepticism. There will be an initial and lingering skepticism on “the new way” to do things, especially when the old way worked fine and had worked for as long as recorded history. I think that despite the marketing push (that was most probably associated with it), most “at will” adopters will chose to wait and see before implementing it wholesale.

Remember one of the core axioms of production: Fast. Quality/It works. Cost. Pick any two. All we know is that it was done fast, so that leaves everyone gambling…

TurboCoupeTurbo wrote:
As far as the fleet numbers go, I use "30 battlestars are a quarter of the fleet" as a rough guide, not an absolute. For example, 30 is roughly "a quarter" of 100, 120, 140, 160 ect. I personally figure 150 battlestars feel right, but I also feel battlestars are a small fraction of the total fleet size. I also don't consider Valkyrie or Osiris type vessels as battlestars, so the trio over Caprica wouldn't count in my book.


Which comes back to the question, “What is a battlestar?” I’m looking at it from what the show called them, so for this discussion, that’s where my perspective comes from.

TurboCoupeTurbo wrote:
In that same vein, I don't think having a "defense force" always on guard over every planet is an effective strategy. If there are 40-50 battlestars "on duty," they are likely steaming on patrol routes along shipping lanes or conducting training exercises in deep space. That way, if the Cylons were to conduct a normal attack, the fleet could reasonably expect to muster a solid 25-30 battlestars plus their escorts as a rapid response force to any incursion while mobilizing whatever ships can be put to space. That's a fairly strong force.


It is a strong force, but let’s also look at the fact that unlike today where you can see your enemy approach and know that he must physically travel across the Atlantic Ocean if the Russians want to launch an airstrike on Bangor, ME, in BSG they simply appear overhead and that’s that. Any ship that would be used for an active defense would have to be present and active. Pegasus managed to escape by essentially tearing herself from her moorings and jumping.

Just like in modern combat, I think the Fleet was well aware that whatever was active when the Cylons attacked would probably be all they had or will have for some time.

TurboCoupeTurbo wrote:
You also make an assumption about the "on station," "training/transit," and "refit" cycles for the fleet based off tradition US Navy deployment cycles. However, I feel a reasonable argument could be made for reducing the "training/transit" cycle due to the rapid transit ability of BSG's FTL drive. Also, the "refit" percentage could probably be reduced based on how sturdy Galactica and Pegasus were during the series. I extrapolate this to mean that Colonial battlestars and other military vessels would require much less dock side work than a 1950's US destroyer, meaning that crew fatigue would be the limiting factor for vessel deployments. That could then be mitigated with a blue/gold crew rotation, which is done on nuclear powered submarines and the littoral combat ships.


Given the FTL response, perhaps the “transit” number is smaller, but also remember that that number includes working up prior to deployment, so while the number will be larger, it won’t be larger by more than perhaps ten or fifteen percent.

I agree that the ships are more sturdy, but we’re also talking about mechanical and electronic items and their support infrastructure. I seem to recall the Chief mentioning that Galactica was way overdue for refit (in a later episode) and that issues he found while crawling through the ship should have been spotted at a routine refit.

This is peacetime, so they’re not going to push the hardware to the extreme, except in certain test cases where they want to see how well it performs.

TurboCoupeTurbo wrote:
Great thoughts, and its nice to have some good technical discussions on here again. Good luck on the homework.


Thanks! Class was cancelled for tonight, but thanks to the wonderful internet, the homework is still due.

_________________
Kurt

Click the link to read Lady Hecate off line in PDF, .epub, or Kindle formats: http://www.bsg94.org/downloads/index.html
Click here for the Colonial Warbook for Lady H: http://www.photobucket.com/colonial_warbook


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:22 pm 
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kfeltenberger wrote:
TurboCoupeTurbo wrote:
There is likely a civilian version of the CNP, especially for FTL vessels. And while the CNP was a fleet program with all the high tech security procedures that can be conveniently circumvented by sexy robots, a civilian version would have much less security and Caprica Six or others could easy insert the Cylon shut down hack into it. In fact, I would assume the civilian version came first because it wouldn't need as much security vetting. If the civi CNP can reduce crew costs and track/broadcast the locations of the ship and other civilian shipping (which are things already done or being explored), nearly every shipping company in the Colonies would have it.

This to me means that a much higher percentage of civilian shipping would be destroyed during the fall. Even if we assume that a battlestar or other military vessel should be able to deactivate the CNP given enough time, it is doubtful that any but a handful of civilian ships would be able to.

At least that is how I head canon things.


I can’t agree completely with you on the civilian CNP for a couple reasons.

1. Cost. Civilian ships would only implement it at the very last moment before a hard “use it or see your navigation clearance revoked” date. Some will have, to field test it for the larger lines, but I think that most will wait until the very last minute before buying it, installing it, integrating it into the workflow, and training the crew on how to use it. Lot of cost there, especially for the large lines.

2. Time. BSG Wiki says that the CNP was developed over a two year period and just recently deployed. While the Fleet might have the resources to implement it in a majority of craft, I don’t see this from a civilian perspective. Two years is hardly enough time to go from RFP, to concept, to prototype, to deployed final version and have it fully tested. Civilians are going to want a track record of reliability before they adopt it wholesale, and as any software developer will tell you, two years from zero code to installed product on a major application is foolhardy.

3. Skepticism. There will be an initial and lingering skepticism on “the new way” to do things, especially when the old way worked fine and had worked for as long as recorded history. I think that despite the marketing push (that was most probably associated with it), most “at will” adopters will chose to wait and see before implementing it wholesale.

Remember one of the core axioms of production: Fast. Quality/It works. Cost. Pick any two. All we know is that it was done fast, so that leaves everyone gambling…


It is only an assumption to explain why there are less civilian vessel survivors than what is shown in the miniseries, with absolutely no canon or otherwise information to support it. However, it is based on real world trends.

I've talked with many professional mariners over the years, including captains and managers. Large shipping companies are actively pursuing anyway they can to reduce crew requirements, even if it costs them up front. In fact, if it wasn't for the legal requirements to keep an actual watchstander on the bridge, there would probably be ghost ships steaming the high seas right now.

So that is why I don't see Cost being an issue, especially when you think about the cost being spread among far more vessels than even the CNP. Skepticism could be a sticking point, since that whole "war for the survival of the human race" thing, but the bean counters always win when tradition gets in the way of profit. The only folks who are going to be able to keep things the old way are the independent operators, and they likely aren't going to be able to afford an FTL ship.

I'm glad you brought up the absurdity of how quickly the military CNP was deployed to the majority of the fleet. Really, the only way that makes any sense is if they adapted an off-the-self program to military requirements (though it is still pretty quick regardless). So a civi CNP, obviously with a different name so as to not contradict the canon 2 year old CNP, could have existed before Baltar's corrupted baby.
kfeltenberger wrote:

TurboCoupeTurbo wrote:
As far as the fleet numbers go, I use "30 battlestars are a quarter of the fleet" as a rough guide, not an absolute. For example, 30 is roughly "a quarter" of 100, 120, 140, 160 ect. I personally figure 150 battlestars feel right, but I also feel battlestars are a small fraction of the total fleet size. I also don't consider Valkyrie or Osiris type vessels as battlestars, so the trio over Caprica wouldn't count in my book.


Which comes back to the question, “What is a battlestar?” I’m looking at it from what the show called them, so for this discussion, that’s where my perspective comes from.

Sure, to each their own.
kfeltenberger wrote:

TurboCoupeTurbo wrote:
In that same vein, I don't think having a "defense force" always on guard over every planet is an effective strategy. If there are 40-50 battlestars "on duty," they are likely steaming on patrol routes along shipping lanes or conducting training exercises in deep space. That way, if the Cylons were to conduct a normal attack, the fleet could reasonably expect to muster a solid 25-30 battlestars plus their escorts as a rapid response force to any incursion while mobilizing whatever ships can be put to space. That's a fairly strong force.


It is a strong force, but let’s also look at the fact that unlike today where you can see your enemy approach and know that he must physically travel across the Atlantic Ocean if the Russians want to launch an airstrike on Bangor, ME, in BSG they simply appear overhead and that’s that. Any ship that would be used for an active defense would have to be present and active. Pegasus managed to escape by essentially tearing herself from her moorings and jumping.

Just like in modern combat, I think the Fleet was well aware that whatever was active when the Cylons attacked would probably be all they had or will have for some time.


Not necessarily. We have all but explicitly stated canon evidence that the Colonials possess FTL communications capabilities. We don't know how close a ship can jump to a planetary body in normal operations (it seems obvious that Galactica's jump into New Caprica was a non-standard jump), or what non-battlestar defenses are present. If vessels normally jump in outside of instant death range, a FTL distress call could have the cavalry arriving in a few minutes. If there are sufficient ground or satellite based defenses to shoot down the majority of Cylon missiles expected, then the battlestars can fight from outside the gravity well, giving them even more advantages over a likely Cylon attack force.

kfeltenberger wrote:

TurboCoupeTurbo wrote:
You also make an assumption about the "on station," "training/transit," and "refit" cycles for the fleet based off tradition US Navy deployment cycles. However, I feel a reasonable argument could be made for reducing the "training/transit" cycle due to the rapid transit ability of BSG's FTL drive. Also, the "refit" percentage could probably be reduced based on how sturdy Galactica and Pegasus were during the series. I extrapolate this to mean that Colonial battlestars and other military vessels would require much less dock side work than a 1950's US destroyer, meaning that crew fatigue would be the limiting factor for vessel deployments. That could then be mitigated with a blue/gold crew rotation, which is done on nuclear powered submarines and the littoral combat ships.


Given the FTL response, perhaps the “transit” number is smaller, but also remember that that number includes working up prior to deployment, so while the number will be larger, it won’t be larger by more than perhaps ten or fifteen percent.

I agree that the ships are more sturdy, but we’re also talking about mechanical and electronic items and their support infrastructure. I seem to recall the Chief mentioning that Galactica was way overdue for refit (in a later episode) and that issues he found while crawling through the ship should have been spotted at a routine refit.

This is peacetime, so they’re not going to push the hardware to the extreme, except in certain test cases where they want to see how well it performs.


True for all that. But a 10% reduction in "transit/training" time gives you 12-15 more battlestars on station. If you can drop 10% from the "refit" time, thats 12-15 more. Suddenly, 40 battlestars immediately available to defend the Colonies becomes 60-70 battlestars. Certainly more than seems to be active during the miniseries.

However, another thing to bring up. You originally broke the fleet up into 3 groups; "on station," "training/transit," and "refit." These are obviously based on US carrier/amphib depolyment patterns. However, going back to FTL transit speeds, "on station" may need to be defined for context. US warships lack instantaneous travel ability, so for them, "on station" means that they are forward deployed to likely conflict areas or areas that are near multiple conflict areas so that the US can respond to situations as quickly as possible.

Since the canon Colonials only have the Cylons to deal with, don't know where the Cylons are, and seem to have developed a defensive military strategy to any future conflict with the Cylons, what to you consider "on station" to be for 40+ battlestars? Obviously they are going to do general patrolling, but every military vessel is always "patrolling." That then begs the question of what 40 battlestars would be doing that could be considered "training/work ups" that would take 4 months of a year that couldn't be considered "patrolling." US vessels work up in home waters far from potential conflict zones (excepting our Japanese home ported carrier), but even in emergencies, their work ups can be cut short to surge to conflict zones for national emergencies such as our Sept 11 response. Non carriers and non amphibs need much less working up as well, providing more surge available forces. If we really want to increase response/defense forces, nearly all the ships in this category could contribute. So even using your 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 split of 120 battlestars, you've got at least 70 battlestars that can respond/defend.
kfeltenberger wrote:

TurboCoupeTurbo wrote:
Great thoughts, and its nice to have some good technical discussions on here again. Good luck on the homework.


Thanks! Class was cancelled for tonight, but thanks to the wonderful internet, the homework is still due.


I know that feel. I just started my spring semester today. Its amazing how many assignments are already due from syllabus review day alone.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:29 pm 
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TurboCoupeTurbo wrote:

kfeltenberger wrote:

TurboCoupeTurbo wrote:
You also make an assumption about the "on station," "training/transit," and "refit" cycles for the fleet based off tradition US Navy deployment cycles. However, I feel a reasonable argument could be made for reducing the "training/transit" cycle due to the rapid transit ability of BSG's FTL drive. Also, the "refit" percentage could probably be reduced based on how sturdy Galactica and Pegasus were during the series. I extrapolate this to mean that Colonial battlestars and other military vessels would require much less dock side work than a 1950's US destroyer, meaning that crew fatigue would be the limiting factor for vessel deployments. That could then be mitigated with a blue/gold crew rotation, which is done on nuclear powered submarines and the littoral combat ships.


Given the FTL response, perhaps the “transit” number is smaller, but also remember that that number includes working up prior to deployment, so while the number will be larger, it won’t be larger by more than perhaps ten or fifteen percent.

I agree that the ships are more sturdy, but we’re also talking about mechanical and electronic items and their support infrastructure. I seem to recall the Chief mentioning that Galactica was way overdue for refit (in a later episode) and that issues he found while crawling through the ship should have been spotted at a routine refit.

This is peacetime, so they’re not going to push the hardware to the extreme, except in certain test cases where they want to see how well it performs.


True for all that. But a 10% reduction in "transit/training" time gives you 12-15 more battlestars on station. If you can drop 10% from the "refit" time, thats 12-15 more. Suddenly, 40 battlestars immediately available to defend the Colonies becomes 60-70 battlestars. Certainly more than seems to be active during the miniseries.

However, another thing to bring up. You originally broke the fleet up into 3 groups; "on station," "training/transit," and "refit." These are obviously based on US carrier/amphib depolyment patterns. However, going back to FTL transit speeds, "on station" may need to be defined for context. US warships lack instantaneous travel ability, so for them, "on station" means that they are forward deployed to likely conflict areas or areas that are near multiple conflict areas so that the US can respond to situations as quickly as possible.

Since the canon Colonials only have the Cylons to deal with, don't know where the Cylons are, and seem to have developed a defensive military strategy to any future conflict with the Cylons, what to you consider "on station" to be for 40+ battlestars? Obviously they are going to do general patrolling, but every military vessel is always "patrolling." That then begs the question of what 40 battlestars would be doing that could be considered "training/work ups" that would take 4 months of a year that couldn't be considered "patrolling." US vessels work up in home waters far from potential conflict zones (excepting our Japanese home ported carrier), but even in emergencies, their work ups can be cut short to surge to conflict zones for national emergencies such as our Sept 11 response. Non carriers and non amphibs need much less working up as well, providing more surge available forces. If we really want to increase response/defense forces, nearly all the ships in this category could contribute. So even using your 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 split of 120 battlestars, you've got at least 70 battlestars that can respond/defend.


I wouldn't futz with those numbers to much, remember whats happening in Japan with the 7th fleet right now, they cut back on training and certification to be more deployable only to have stupid accidents due to lack of basic seamanship skills. Yes, having more ships out there on patrol is a good thing, but only if the crew is properly trained and able to do the job, if they aren't properly prepared to do that job their just in the way and making a bad situation worse and vastly more dangerous for everyone.


As far as "work up" goes, you do that at home where help can get to you fast if something go's wrong, these may be considered as the planetary defense force in a pinch, but sending them out into the deep black without training and certification is something only a fool would conciser. All it would take is one engineer who isn't properly trained to input the wrong command into a computer system, or not recognize an issue in progress, to cause a catastrophic chain reaction (reactor going critical, jump drive blowing up, oxygen system shutting down, the possibilities are endless) that could lead to the ship being lost.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:20 pm 
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Which was kind of my point.

Where in the deep black are all these battlestars going? When transit times from home port to patrol station are instantaneous, and FTL communications can summon help from lightyears away just as quickly, any battlestar with enough crew onboard to shoot to the guns becomes a planetary defense force 'in a pinch'.

I understand all too well about cutting down on training, coming from a naval background myself, but most "work up" isn't in basic seamanship skills. Its fleet combat skills and flight operations which take up the majority of a work up period. But that wasn't the part of that time frame I was trying to cut down, it was the transit part. A battlestar doesn't need a week or 3 to arrive on patrol, it just has to spool its jump drives and they are there in a flash.

We try awfully hard to link the Colonial Fleet to the present day US Navy, but they have vastly different mission requirements to deal with.

Honestly, the Indian or Italian navies seem like a better fit mission wise than the US Navy in a Canon BSG based universe.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:38 pm 
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I'm not 100% convinced that there is widespread FTL coms, and an argument could be made that there aren't any as they were never explicitly mentioned. In the miniseries, Boomer uses a communications drone to expand the reach of her wireless, and we never see FTL coms used later in the series, especially between Galactica and Pegasus, two ships that would have them if they existed.

If this is the case, then communications would be as fast as wireless or physical travel. That changes the equation somewhat. It's also a reason why one of the SOPs in Lady H is for a ship to prep a "Marathon Raptor" that will be continuously updated and then sent to inform someone else as to what happened.

I just sifted through the BSG Wiki (the site is back up for Patreon members as they rebuild it) and couldn't find any mention about FTL coms.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:15 am 
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I always asssumed there was a comm network of transmitters across colonial space so they could communicate with each other planet to planet, but the Cylon infiltration
and invasion compromised it either completely or partially.

Once Galactica left the colonies they were down to "wireless" transmitters.

If there wasn't some kind of high speed comms between the colony planets then centralised government doesn't really work, that's why I think they had something.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:02 pm 
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kfeltenberger wrote:
I'm not 100% convinced that there is widespread FTL coms, and an argument could be made that there aren't any as they were never explicitly mentioned. In the miniseries, Boomer uses a communications drone to expand the reach of her wireless, and we never see FTL coms used later in the series, especially between Galactica and Pegasus, two ships that would have them if they existed.

If this is the case, then communications would be as fast as wireless or physical travel. That changes the equation somewhat. It's also a reason why one of the SOPs in Lady H is for a ship to prep a "Marathon Raptor" that will be continuously updated and then sent to inform someone else as to what happened.

I just sifted through the BSG Wiki (the site is back up for Patreon members as they rebuild it) and couldn't find any mention about FTL coms.


We actually had this discussion almost 4 years ago.

http://www.wolfsshipyard.com/yards/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5401

I'm still convinced there is widespread FTL communications, at least within the home systems using the QM map. Since there is no 100% canon established layout of the Colonies other than they are on different planets, that makes the existence of FTL communications semi-canon.

There is definitely some form of FTL comms even in the miniseries, since there is zero communications lag shown. We see nearly 360 degrees around Galactica and there are no planets that are visible as planets to the naked eye. Plus, the dialog seems to indicate that Galactica's decommissioning ceremony is far out in deep space (a rant for another day). Yet, Galactica, an unarmed decommissioned civilian vessel at that point, gets real time fleet movement information regarding the counter attack being prepared over Virgon and then that the attack failed. Galactica does not rate a dedicated Raptor to relay this information to them, and then to risk another one when all your other battlestars are going down? Not plausible.

As to why Galactica and Pegasus never used it (other than plot, really) is that they never needed to. They were almost always with in visual sighting distance of escorting the fleet. As I said in the other thread, its possible that FTL communications are easy for the Cylons to track, meaning even situations where Pegasus and Galactica are apart might lead to bringing the Cylons down on them. And lets not forget that Pegasus had really crappy CO's and Galactica didn't really have a much better one.


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