Wolfs Shipyard Forum

The new forum for Wolf's Shipyard
It is currently Tue Oct 15, 2019 5:57 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 9:31 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2014 4:43 am
Posts: 38
Colonial guard forces.

After the Unification and Cylon war, there was a growing desire to restrict the individual colonies to small naval forces.
Said desire sparked a great deal of hostility, both from long-service officers in those navies who resented the “new” Colonial navy to citizens who feared being left defenseless in case the new central government proved to be a tyranny.

So as a compromise, individual worlds were able to maintain “Guard Fleets” for local defense policing and disaster relief activities. In some cases, such as Virgon, this led to short lived attempts to match the Colonial navy, while other worlds focused on more modest goals. Nonetheless, over the course of time, the central government of the Colonies continued to try and force these fleets to become little more than police agencies. This process had not been completed by the time of the Cylon attack.

However, the Colonial Government successfully put major restrictions on the guard fleets, most notably forbidding the use or possession of nuclear weapons, a right that was, post Cylon war, restricted to the central government. The forces trained with these weapons, in case they were ever nationalized during a state of emergency, but did not possess them. The fact that nuclear weapons were one of the primary ways of quickly destroying a capital ship was lost on nobody, and some of the larger guard forces were rumored to have nuclear weapons that their planetary governments kept “off the books” in case of an emergency.

By the time of the Fall, the Guard forces fell into two broad categories— worlds with a naval tradition and large economies, such as Canceron or Virgon tended to have large and effective guard forces, while smaller and less prosperous colonies had to do with less, in come cases, using pre-first warships. In addition, less affluent Guard forces focused on small police ships, leaving the larger ships to those worlds that had greater interests off world and, if one would be honest, could afford the prestige.

None of the guard fleets were allowed to benefit from the advanced CNP technology. This proved to be a blessing in disguise.


This is going to be a thread for me to talk about my idea of Colonial Guard Fleet, stemming from my love of our own Coast Guard.

A few themes: 1. Forty years is not a long time to forget that you were shooting at your neighbor. The Fleet is unified, but even there you see the tension between various colonies. At least in the beginning, the Guard might have been a backstop in case one day you found out that Caprica was now calling the shots, or that some evil Cabal of Fleet officers had pulled a coup.

2. When we talk about design, it's importnat to remember one fact: The Colonies have no magic anti-nuke weapons and FTL as it is handled in the series means a ship has to worry about getting hit with an alpha strike. My personal belief is you have big, 500+meter long ships and raptor sized secondary craft with very little in between. Gunships may exist, but they're more like really big fighters than small warships and generally die horribly if they can't evade or shoot down a nuke (and because they are gunships, don't generally have to worry about the same style of surprise attack that a ship with more general purposes might). For that reason, most guard ships are pretty big, many of them being refitted Fleet ships that were paid off or designs built by local shipyards.

Design themese also include a large space for disaster relief supplies and other cargo-- a guard ship will be armed, but likely not as heavily as a Fleet ship because it' snot just a warship, it's a general purpose ship. Paid off troop ships are probably very popular, due to their cargo and small craft handling facilities.

3. Wealthy worlds probably have larger fleets, mainly because it's a way to funnel money back into local business concerns. Conversly, their citizens are probably likely to ask why they need a guard fleet, as they're doing well in the new order. Poor worlds may want a larger fleet, but can't afford it.

4. No guard fleet comes close to matching the colonial navy. A wealthy world might have a battlestar equivalent ship, but due to the nature of thier mission they're likely to be less heavily armed, than any comparable fleet ship-- and most importantly, they don't have a lot of them. A rich world like Virgon or Caprica might have four or five true "Capital" ships, but they are very much the exception to the rule.

During the Fall, these fleets were mostly destroyed-- few crews would abandon their homeworlds, but they were the reason for Boomers comment about the only ships having any luck against the cylons being the old ones. If any did flee, they likely never contacted the Galactica and so became the core of their own little fleets, or remained in the region of colonies fighting against the cylons.*

*Hollywood always gets scale wrong in these things. If you have no reliable method of tracking FTL, someone jumping a light month can lose themselves as easily as someone jumping a light year-- space is just that vast when you're talking about most forms of sensor systems.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 10:00 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2011 1:00 am
Posts: 5053
Location: Battlestar Hecate BSG-94
This is a good topic!

In Lady H, there are both national fleets and a Colonial Guard that complement and support the Colonial Fleet. The national fleets sound a lot like what you're describing (essentially a planetary navy under the direct control of the planetary leader and used to protect and safeguard planetary interests while at the same time projecting that power and prestige beyond the planet's local space) while the Colonial Guard is essentially the USCG in space.

_________________
Kurt

Click the link to read Lady Hecate off line in PDF, .epub, or Kindle formats: http://www.bsg94.org/downloads/index.html
Click here for the Colonial Warbook for Lady H: http://www.photobucket.com/colonial_warbook


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 6:50 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2014 4:43 am
Posts: 38
For my setting I considered a Colonial guard, but I figured that A. LAw enforcement might very well be one of the last things the member colonies gave up, and B. The Fleet would be very suspicious of anything that might require them to invest in non-mainline ships, given their emphasis on fighting the cylons. Of course, that might have been changing by the end of the Colonial era, but if so, didn't get put ito place.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 9:38 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:00 pm
Posts: 392
Location: NonSirrah
I feel like any 'Planetary' Guard would obviously be an extension more of Law Enforcement than Military. They would be the anti-smuggling/Anti-pirating force that keeps the skies clean. Their biggest ships would be Gunstars and Carrierstars gifted to them by the Colonial Fleet, most of their staff would be required to have served a reserve commission or enlistment at the very least.

Again this might make them smaller, but more budget friendly for a planet (and more in the control of their local government)

In Lady H I felt like the High Guard might be specific JUST to Scorpia and it's shipyards. Since there's mention of the Colonial Guard later.

Like with the Legionnaires, they have their own ships presumably but they probably still have to hitch a ride with Colonial Fleet vessels if they want to do anything outside the markers that are specifically their own home turf.

Also though no other nobility is mentioned in Lady H, the possibility exists of a small fleet of military grade vessels that second themselves to Virgon's Guard, to the empress, or as with the Battlestar Hecate, seconded to the Colonial fleet itself.

Clearly the Romani are allowed to field very outdated Vipers (or at least, nobody minds enough to cite them for it) But likely their defenses are mostly geared toward piracy or buying enough time for the fleet to spin up their jump drives when the Cylons return. (If any group would believe it just on the word of mouth, I feel like the Romani would. But this isn't a lady H thread)

Ultimately it would likely be that all Planetary Guard Fleets meet some minimum requirements from the Quorum (mostly that paying for it doesn't detract from a planet's contributions to the rest of the Colonial Government) And certainly a planet like Sagitarrion with its many.... Civil... issues, might be denied the 'privilege' of it's own guard fleet. (Might be why its' such a dead end posting for a Battlestar, you've got your regular duties AND Guard duties.)


I do feel like, and this is just a suddenly blink of whimsy, that the Guard might have better parties.... but that's just me.

_________________
So, I've got a story Tumblr.

Piece Keepers
It starts out like Buffy the Vampire Slayer, but it'll end like the Avengers. When I finish it. Update: New Tumblr account for a clean upload from the start. Check it out! Follow! Reblog!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 9:54 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2011 1:00 am
Posts: 5053
Location: Battlestar Hecate BSG-94
MarcusOterra wrote:
I feel like any 'Planetary' Guard would obviously be an extension more of Law Enforcement than Military. They would be the anti-smuggling/Anti-pirating force that keeps the skies clean. Their biggest ships would be Gunstars and Carrierstars gifted to them by the Colonial Fleet, most of their staff would be required to have served a reserve commission or enlistment at the very least.


I've copied your comments over to the Lady H Discussion as they're good fodder for discussion and will answer them there so we don't hijack this thread.

_________________
Kurt

Click the link to read Lady Hecate off line in PDF, .epub, or Kindle formats: http://www.bsg94.org/downloads/index.html
Click here for the Colonial Warbook for Lady H: http://www.photobucket.com/colonial_warbook


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 11:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:00 am
Posts: 562
I agree with Kurt, this is a good topic.

Unfortunately though, I'm on the other side of the fence regarding National fleets (assuming we are sticking to canon and quasi-canon like story settings).

1) Using the 4 systems model (ie, the quasi-canon quantum mechanics map), I don't see there being any type of large, powerful battle fleets under direct planetary control. With only 4 systems to defend, the combined Colonial Fleet is able to keep its forces concentrated at acceptable numbers (especially at the 2 or 3:1 effectiveness versus Basestars we see the Galactica and Pegasus are capable of). This is going to make a planet-specific reserve fleet unnecessary, since all the defense duties will be handled.

2) Battle lines are expensive. If you are already paying for 1 battle fleet, why would you want to fund a second without the support (and money!) of the other Colonies. Plus, then you have to worry about those other Colonies and THEIR battle fleets. Its more advantageous to each individual Colony to prevent the others from having a battle fleet than it is to maintain their own. Even after such a disastrous war, money is going to be hard to come by for defense. Rebuilding is going to take a lot, and after that is done lowering taxes is a good political tool for getting elected.

3) 40 years is plenty of time to mend the fences between Colonies. Especially if you include the time frame of the Cylon War, which is another 12 years, for a total of 52 years since Unification. Plus, there was that whole "War for Survival against the Murderous Robots" thing that has a shocking way of focusing the desire for conflict away from your neighbors. At worst, Caprica would be the Colony ostracized for unleashing the thinking Cylon on humanity, but since we can find the capital of the Colonies on Caprica, it still holds preeminence. The other issue is that we don't have any indication of a truly devastating war between two Colonies that wasn't several hundred years ago (again, using the quantum map), so just because the Colonies weren't unified, doesn't mean they were breathing down each others' necks.

Think of it this way, most of your politicians before the war are going to be retiring about 20 years after it. By the events in the mini-series, anyone old enough to have fought against another Colony world would be in their mid-70's at least. Only a very small minority of those are going to hold on to a grudge that long, and the newest generations will consider them old fashioned and racist for keeping up that hatred.

Look back to the years after WW2. England, France, and Germany are probably the best example of how quickly people move on from conflicts. Less than 10 years after the end of the war, all three nations are facing the possible threat of a Soviet invasion. They are working together on joint defenses, forming alliances, sharing technology, and there is very little conflict between the people of these individual nations. 40 years after (1985), there is nobody who would seriously consider Germany and England having another war with each other. 52 years, and we were seeing even more efforts to link the countries together.

4) Now, all this can be different in your universe, and that is certainly your choice. As a former Coast Guardian, I approve of a Colonial equivalent. However, without an outside trading organization, I don't see a need at the Federal level for a true Coast Guard. Our bread and butter is enforcement of customs duties. With out a non-Colonial entity to trade with, those duties are only happening between the 12 planets. I feel that they would rather keep individual planetary Customs confined to each individual planet, so that changes in tariffs on one Colony isn't throwing off everybody else.

This is where I see national fleets belonging in a canon universe. Small policing vessels which fly the flag of the individual Colony, with secondary duties working with the fleet in system defense. Basically the escort type vessels the Tygh was assigned to. Potentially, a few larger legacy vessels that are unsuited to Fleet use may also be included following the Cylon War, but they would most likely be retired without replacement by the time of the mini-series in an effort to reduce planetary funding.

Again, this assumes a mostly canon universe. If you choose to alter it (I know I do!) then that totally changes things.

Looking forward to a good BSG discussion.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2016 12:59 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2014 4:43 am
Posts: 38
Well one question of coures is how much travel is there outside the colonies. With a mature FTL tech (and 5 LY jumps that can be performed fairly rapidly), you could have a sphere in the colonies of exploited worlds 40 or 50 light years in diameter. There are about 1400 star systems within 50 LY of earth and we're finding more and more planets every year, so it's entirely likely that the Colonies have a lot of systems, not including the ones that aren't associated iwth any sun (brown dwarfs and such). We also know that they did have offworld luxury resorts, from B&C.

So if you assume the treaty didn't simply confine the colonials to their home system, there would be a large number of worlds that might require policing.

The second arguement for guard forces comes from the idea that long range FTL communications* aren't a thing. If you need to send messengers, and there is no effective way to interdict your enemies, much of the actual Colonial fleet will have to be concentrated, rather than risk being caught scattered. It'll also require a larger police force, which is actually rather close to why the British Navy had to be so huge in the age of sail.

So, you can make an argument that there's a need for a larger number of ships and member states would still have a place for their own fleets.

Finally, and this comes from some of my work with people in the defense industry-- maintaining your own forces lets you hand out contracts and bases to important constituents, while also appealing to your patriotic base.

*the question of FTL in galactica is one that really is up to the writer-- we have what looks like Adama recieving real time updates about the fight, when the position of ragner would put Adama at a several week lag if we're talking about light speed communications. (if we assume that Ragnar is about .08 LY from Virgon). Then there are the fact that we never seen any lag in the rest of the story.
Of course, the fact that raptors can't talk to the galactica when on scout missions calls this into doubt, perhaps indicating that these systems were only usable by large fixed installations, making them uselessafter the galactica fled the system.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2016 5:11 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:00 am
Posts: 562
I understand that. Which is why I tried to make it clear in my post that it was only meant for canon style universes. There is a LOT of openness in BSG though, and you can postulate many new variables from the information we have available. But that doesn't make it canon, unfortunately.

I personally agree with you. The Colonials would have spread out around their home cluster as soon as semi-reliable FTL was invented. IF it was 2000 years prior to the mini-series, then the Colonies of Man should have an absolutely humongous empire. I place FTL in my universe right about 200 years before the mini-series. This allows for several out-cluster settlements to be established and prospering before the Cylon War kicks off. Post Cylon War rebuilding means only a handful of new settlements are establish before the mini-series. I also like my Cylons of the non man-made variety like TOS BSG. So, my uni is a bit farther from canon than most peoples.

As far as FTL comms, I'm in the "They definitely have it, but Raptors may be too small for the equipment" camp. I believe Galactica and Pegasus could have communicated with each other FTL if there was a need, but there was never a reason to in the series. But if you go with No FTL comms, then courier vessels would be a necessity. No FTL and more worlds to patrol, then you are going to need way more ships, but they would/should belong to the Combined Fleet and not individual planetary fleets.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2016 8:15 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2011 1:00 am
Posts: 5053
Location: Battlestar Hecate BSG-94
TurboCoupeTurbo wrote:
I understand that. Which is why I tried to make it clear in my post that it was only meant for canon style universes. There is a LOT of openness in BSG though, and you can postulate many new variables from the information we have available. But that doesn't make it canon, unfortunately.

I personally agree with you. The Colonials would have spread out around their home cluster as soon as semi-reliable FTL was invented. IF it was 2000 years prior to the mini-series, then the Colonies of Man should have an absolutely humongous empire. I place FTL in my universe right about 200 years before the mini-series. This allows for several out-cluster settlements to be established and prospering before the Cylon War kicks off. Post Cylon War rebuilding means only a handful of new settlements are establish before the mini-series. I also like my Cylons of the non man-made variety like TOS BSG. So, my uni is a bit farther from canon than most peoples.


Having viable FTL really opens a lot of plot holes when you consider how old the Colonies are and how long they've had interworld travel. For Lady H, I am going with the baseline that there were considerable settlements outside the Cyrannus cluster but during the Uprising several things happened:

1. Many were abandoned when the populations realized that they were sitting ducks after the Cylons picked off several similar worlds.

2. The larger and more established worlds were glassed by the Cylons and thus had forced evacuations

3. Some worlds were simply cut off due to the Armistice (see the Islands Cluster in Lady H where Ismail is introduced)

4. There are still quite a few worlds that have human population centers on them (such as Aqaba had in the Solis system and Saga has in the Thule system), but by and large they're either small and rely on regular support from the Colonies or they just don't have a critical mass of population, technology, and infrastructure. The Uprising pointed out how fragile these worlds are and a good portion of the population repatriated back to the Cyrannus Cluster.

If you look at things from a purely mathematical model, the Colonies should have expanded to several thousand worlds with populations on each world ranging from a few hundred million to several billion...it would be pretty much impossible to kill off humanity. Just for discussion sake, with a starting population of 200,000 and a growth rate similar of what we have today, after 2000 years the Colonial population would grow to: 459,256,173,766,780 On the other paw, if they started out with 35,000, and using a similar average growth rate you'd have a population of 80,369,830,409,186. So ballpark things between 80 trillion and 460 trillion souls.

http://www.metamorphosisalpha.com/ias/population.php

TurboCoupeTurbo wrote:
As far as FTL comms, I'm in the "They definitely have it, but Raptors may be too small for the equipment" camp. I believe Galactica and Pegasus could have communicated with each other FTL if there was a need, but there was never a reason to in the series. But if you go with No FTL comms, then courier vessels would be a necessity. No FTL and more worlds to patrol, then you are going to need way more ships, but they would/should belong to the Combined Fleet and not individual planetary fleets.


With no FTL comms, you have an "age of sail" empire where communications traveled at the speed of the courier ship. But, as you point out, there are several inconsistencies with that in the Mini-Series alone. I like the idea of not having FTL comms, but then I like the idea of FTL comms. So I guess you could say I'm caught betwixt and between on the issue. I think there is a FTL communications system within the Cyrannus Cluster, perhaps a constellation of satellites that operate much like wifi access points or maybe even the larger ships have the actual FTL communications gear on-board. Either way, I think that there is some form of real-time communications.

Now, that said, I think that it might also be of limited range. This isn't a normal wireless signal that's being sent out, the physics require it to be something different. So perhaps it's limited to a couple LY?

_________________
Kurt

Click the link to read Lady Hecate off line in PDF, .epub, or Kindle formats: http://www.bsg94.org/downloads/index.html
Click here for the Colonial Warbook for Lady H: http://www.photobucket.com/colonial_warbook


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2016 11:42 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:00 am
Posts: 425
I look at the colonial guard as a combination of coast guard, national guard and air national guard. Where the federal government supplies the equipment, although it is older and not the most modern. For the most part they report to and are administered by the states, being federalized for national emergencies/conflicts.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 3:56 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:00 am
Posts: 562
Yeah, there just isn't any way for humanity to have an effective FTL drive for 2000 years and only be confined to 4 localized star systems. But the show never mentions any other outside settlements, which is why I removed that ability until very recently in time. I use the assumption that the Kobol evacuees swore off advanced technology upon arriving in the Helios cluster, but humans being human, we drove right back into space as fast as we could. This also accounts for the much smaller population than what your math says they should have (lack of advanced medicines and food production being the primary factors).

I can get behind the node system for FTL comms, especially with a range limitation. I think you could even go dual mode, with node-to-node traffic having a greater range since the nodes are in fixed, known positions with direct connections between them. With ship-to-node traffic, the range is significantly shorter as both systems have to broadcast in all directions since ships are obviously not in a fixed position. I would confine ship-to-node distance to a single solar system, while node-to-node is a decent amount of light years. I think it would be easy to limit FTL comms to bigger than Raptor sized vessels, maybe even link equipment range to the size of the vessel, a bigger ship has more room to house bigger antennas and transmitters and ect.

-John


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 8:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2014 4:43 am
Posts: 38
Yeah-- i mean, one problem is that if you take the map as canon? Virgon and the other colonies were having wars-- literal wars over asteroid recources nearly four hundred years ago.
That means two things: One they likely did have at least primitive FTL, and 2. Their rate of technological progress was incredibly slow.
which of course doesn't fit with caprica.

As a historian, I'll just say that a lot of film and TV writers really fail history hard. It's like I told some people-- if you put 40,000 people on earth in 150K BCE, you either A. have them all die off damned fast, or B. our world is changed behyond comprehension. Forget the advanced tech, just imagine what things like writing, math, knowledge of the lever, sepsis, and basic farming does. you don't even need an indepth knowledge--what you or I know, casually, puts us beyond 99 percent of human history.

One idea is to radically compress things-- you could say, have all 12 colonies seeded 2000 years ago, and then as you said, have FTL and cheap space flight devleoped about 400 years ago for normal space and 200 years ago for FTL, which still leaves a lot of time (more than our entire modern era) for conflict, while not asking: why did they stagnate for over 2,000 years when they already had FTL.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 8:18 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2011 1:00 am
Posts: 5053
Location: Battlestar Hecate BSG-94
jeff762 wrote:
I look at the colonial guard as a combination of coast guard, national guard and air national guard. Where the federal government supplies the equipment, although it is older and not the most modern. For the most part they report to and are administered by the states, being federalized for national emergencies/conflicts.


Once you bring the USCG into the mix, then I start having some problems with the explanation for a couple reasons. First and foremost, until recently, the USCG while military, was still very much a civilian law enforcement agency. I'll spare you my rants on why I strongly disagreed when it was folded under the DoD, but simply put for BSG, do you really want a unit with a primarily military focus and mission to handle law enforcement duties? The second thing is a quote that Adama made during the first season (IIRC, it was the first season) that implied that the military and military auxiliary units forced on killing people/Cylons and breaking things, not on law enforcement, customs, or such:

There's a reason you separate military and the police. One fights the enemies of the state, the other serves and protects the people. When the military becomes both, then the enemies of the state tend to become the people.


Now, since this statement was between him and Roslyn, it would imply that there was a clear demarcation between military and everyone else when it came to allowable duties.

I just think that there should be a separate service for the law enforcement, customs, tariff enforcement, civilian shipping certification and inspection, and majority of search and rescue duties, while any sort of "home guard" or colony fleet should be something quite different so that the roles don't get blended and blurred.

Finally, let's also remember that it's only been 52 years since unification was forced on the Colonies. 52 years ago was 1964 and if you look back to some of the issues of the era, specifically the last gasps of European Colonialism in Africa and Asia, and then fast forward to today, you'll see that there's still a massive amount of resentment in many nations that used to be "colonies". And that was only after less than 500 years of colonial rule, much less in many cases. Now, imagine what the 12 Colonies went through for 2000 years, and then add to the fact that rather than having just diaries, books, and maybe a few papers that were written by those in power like we had, you have not only that but also audio and video records as well. There's going to be a lot of fuel to keep, if not the hate, then the distrust burning brightly.

Would you, as a citizen of one of the worlds that fared less than ideally during the various colonial periods, occupations, and slights, really feel comfortable if the military arm of the oppressor's world stopped your ship for a customs inspection or for some other legal but annoying or unwelcome reason? Or, would it smooth the waters if a Federal level (i.e. under the Colonial government's control) pseudo LE arm did the stop and you knew that the branch was open to all nationalities?

Just something to consider when trying to include law enforcement and (what we consider today) border enforcement roles onto a military unit.

_________________
Kurt

Click the link to read Lady Hecate off line in PDF, .epub, or Kindle formats: http://www.bsg94.org/downloads/index.html
Click here for the Colonial Warbook for Lady H: http://www.photobucket.com/colonial_warbook


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 8:37 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2011 1:00 am
Posts: 5053
Location: Battlestar Hecate BSG-94
TurboCoupeTurbo wrote:
Yeah, there just isn't any way for humanity to have an effective FTL drive for 2000 years and only be confined to 4 localized star systems. But the show never mentions any other outside settlements, which is why I removed that ability until very recently in time. I use the assumption that the Kobol evacuees swore off advanced technology upon arriving in the Helios cluster, but humans being human, we drove right back into space as fast as we could. This also accounts for the much smaller population than what your math says they should have (lack of advanced medicines and food production being the primary factors).


I went back and changed the population growth from .012/yr to .001, essentially about 8% of the original, and that comes out to almost 45 billion. If you change things up a bit and postulate a 6 billion soul population in CY1600 spread across all the colonies and settlements, and then use the standard .012/yr growth rate, you still come out with 708.6 billion souls by CY2k.

Let's play around with the numbers a bit more...let's assume 50,000 refugees settled the Colonies and then had an annual growth rate of half of what we have today, .006, for 1600 years and then use that number for 400 years at .012...

CY1600: 717,363,302
CY2000: 84,711,848,248

The CY1600 numbers seem a bit too low to allow the colonialism and such that we know went on against the other worlds. The population base wouldn't really be adequate to support Virgon's expansion, let alone both Virgon's and Leonis', and then the cosmopolitan nature of Caprica and the historical population numbers of Canceron.

If I were one of the Mythbusters, I would have to say that any population numbers mentioned in the show were busted, broken, pulled out of the writer's third point of contact.

TurboCoupeTurbo wrote:
I can get behind the node system for FTL comms, especially with a range limitation. I think you could even go dual mode, with node-to-node traffic having a greater range since the nodes are in fixed, known positions with direct connections between them. With ship-to-node traffic, the range is significantly shorter as both systems have to broadcast in all directions since ships are obviously not in a fixed position. I would confine ship-to-node distance to a single solar system, while node-to-node is a decent amount of light years. I think it would be easy to limit FTL comms to bigger than Raptor sized vessels, maybe even link equipment range to the size of the vessel, a bigger ship has more room to house bigger antennas and transmitters and ect.

-John


I like how you expanded on this. I'll add one thing...the part that takes the power is the transmitter, smaller ships, like the Raptor, can have an FTL receiver. We know that a ship the size of Colonial One can handle FTL coms, given the distance she was from Galactica when Adama ordered the fleet to assemble at Ragnar, they had real time coms without any lag. Also, Adama asked Dee, "Are they within voice range?" after reading the teletype reply that Apollo sent.

_________________
Kurt

Click the link to read Lady Hecate off line in PDF, .epub, or Kindle formats: http://www.bsg94.org/downloads/index.html
Click here for the Colonial Warbook for Lady H: http://www.photobucket.com/colonial_warbook


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 9:04 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2011 1:00 am
Posts: 5053
Location: Battlestar Hecate BSG-94
cgray wrote:
Yeah-- i mean, one problem is that if you take the map as canon? Virgon and the other colonies were having wars-- literal wars over asteroid recources nearly four hundred years ago.
That means two things: One they likely did have at least primitive FTL, and 2. Their rate of technological progress was incredibly slow.
which of course doesn't fit with caprica.

As a historian, I'll just say that a lot of film and TV writers really fail history hard. It's like I told some people-- if you put 40,000 people on earth in 150K BCE, you either A. have them all die off damned fast, or B. our world is changed behyond comprehension. Forget the advanced tech, just imagine what things like writing, math, knowledge of the lever, sepsis, and basic farming does. you don't even need an indepth knowledge--what you or I know, casually, puts us beyond 99 percent of human history.

One idea is to radically compress things-- you could say, have all 12 colonies seeded 2000 years ago, and then as you said, have FTL and cheap space flight devleoped about 400 years ago for normal space and 200 years ago for FTL, which still leaves a lot of time (more than our entire modern era) for conflict, while not asking: why did they stagnate for over 2,000 years when they already had FTL.


All very good questions. I'm not sure I agree that the rate of technological progress was slow...there are some very keyed in people within the tech world that are predicting that we're very close to hitting a plateau where barring revolutionary advances in materials sciences and physics, the most we're going to see are slow evolutionary advances as Moore's Law slows from 18 months to several years, decades, or even centuries.

Let's look at space travel...From 1945 to 1970 we went from primitive ballistic missiles to putting two men on the moon and returning them safely to Earth. Most of that development was really done between 1955 and 1965, and now look at what we've done since then...we had a space truck that never lived up to its potential, never reached the mission goals that were set out when it was designed, and ultimately we're back to using 1950s/1960s designs to send crews to a space station that's almost at the end if its lifespan with no replacement in sight.

Let's look at propulsion technology...post 1945 we went from piston driven propeller planes to turbojet, to turbofans, to turboprops, to high bypass turbofans, to several exotic blends that are probably still a decade or more away from being tested in a 1:1 scale testbed. Passenger travel was about 200 to 300 mph in 1945, and now it's not even twice that (based on the B737, the most popular airliner produced), even though range has expanded to the point where almost any airliner is now capable of transcontinental range with many being transatlantic capable. But that performance was reached in 1967.

If we go back to when the first modern microprocessors were developed, the late 1970s, we have a similar window of growth and development as the other technologies. Right now we've milked the performance almost as far as it will go, so we're looking at doing the same for memory (re: Intel's recent announcement of solid state memory 1000x faster than current solid state memory - i.e. Flash memory) and simply refining things - better power management, lower power needs, less heat, better graphics resolution, etc.

Internal combustion engines are similar; yes, we have smaller, more efficient, higher performing motors, but there haven't been any real revolutionary advances. I recently saw a magazine from the early 70s with an ad for Toyota (IIRC, it was either that or Datsun/Nissan) that boasted their compact car could drive from New York City to LA for $20...about 50 gallons of gas based on the average. That's about 55 miles to the gallon. Look at our cars today...certainly safer and certainly with more standard features, and I'm sure they pollute less, but the cost of half the mileage.

Anyway, I guess what I'm trying to say is that once we get to a certain point technology wise, I can see how rather than computing power (for example) doubling every 18 months or so, that it could take centuries of small advances across the board to reach a doubling point.

_________________
Kurt

Click the link to read Lady Hecate off line in PDF, .epub, or Kindle formats: http://www.bsg94.org/downloads/index.html
Click here for the Colonial Warbook for Lady H: http://www.photobucket.com/colonial_warbook


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group