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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:45 pm 
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Hey all, wanted to ask fans of the BSG series some difficult questions.

The final five. Did anyone have any issue with this? Like with who was chosen, or anything?
I always figured they knew from the beginning maybe changed things over time with the series evolving. I just read more in depth from RDM that essentially they made this decision making season 3/4.

Is Tigh an issue? Ellen I understand, from her first episode it was always a question and truthfully it brought depth to her character. Tigh is a serious shift as RDM admits because he was the most human character, yet there’s an interesting dichotomy as he’s so antiCylon yet he himself is a Cylon... it does bring up plot issues I
As I’ve seen others comment as such. That at least Saul was put on the colonies 30 years BCH or only 10 years after armistice which posits that the Cylons first broke the armistice and did it ever have real meaning?

I don’t really get Tory. RDM admitted she was really just a wildcard, and they wrote her shocking scenes IE 86ing Cally from this change in mind. Main thing is Tory replaced Billy and only because the outside world chimed in, the actor didn’t want to commit to 5 years. Would Billy have been a better choice?

Tyrol. Does anyone think this one fits? Like Tigh it’s more a stretch or just something fans maybe feel wrong about, that we had one thing in mind and in the ninth hour it’s shifted and turned it’s on head. The actor for Tyrol was the only one on record when RDM brought this to them who was saying “I just really don’t want to be a Cylon.” Given the boomer/baby with Cally business it’s a hot mess. Everything is seen through a different lense.

Sam. Kind of seems thrown in there like Tory to end cap, get the five number. Kind of dig it, at the same time just don’t see the point either. What are y’all’s thoughts?

The five are somewhat integral, without their inclusion there’s no clear answer why the Cylons agreed to armistice, how the human Cylons come to be... Yet other issues come up, does it seem contrived they’re from a complete other Earth? That was an ending they filmed not knowing if the show continued for S4.5, just finding nuked 13th colony world of Kobol Cylons. RDMs apparent main mission was finding Earth and he believed the show ended when they did, period. Yet the Five have to be from somewhere, so the giant red herring of nuked not Earth, Earth.

One of my beta readers biggest issue with the series was over this with the Five.
“ There are two reasons I see the final five story line as flawed:
1.) There is a very tacked on nature to the entire story line. The destruction of their home world, their travel to the colonies, creating the other human Cylons, Cavil's rebellion is all told by back story and exposition. None of it is ever seen on screen. These are all major plot points and we get it all by dialog and some heavy-handing about it being god's will. All this comes from BSG writers making up a lot of this as they went, so the story structure feels disjointed. Moreover, why I’ve been bothered by the fives origin story, Basically, it doesn't make any sense.

So the thirteenth tribe are Cylons, or Cylons who split off from the thirteenth tribe. Whichever it is, they go on to form their homeworld, we'll call it 'fake earth'. So on 'fake earth' they had the ability to resurrect, but they gave it up for biological reproduction. But why? Why would they give it up? Just like the Colonials giving up their technology when they settle on the 'real earth' there is little reason to do so. If reproduction represents the way for them to evolve, why can't they have both? Does the ability to have children out weigh the ability to save a loved one from an accident through resurrection technology? I can't see much of a reason why both couldn't be used.

After the destruction of 'fake earth' the survivors travel to the 12 colonies. Now you could make the argument they were traveling there as refugees, but they do make the specific point of saying they came to warn the others about living with their creations. Again why? They have not had any contact with the other colonies in centuries. They have no idea what state of technology the colonies are at, or what their social interaction with each other or any potential AIs they might have created.

Then when they do get there, they don't try to contact both sides and broker a peace. Instead, they offer the Colonial Cylons the ability for human form bodies and the ability to resurrect. But why would the Colonial Cylons want this? They wanted to liberate themselves from their creators (and/or exterminate them) What would motivate them to want this offered technology? Also I would argue they would likely already have the ability to resurrect themselves (or at least be working on the tech). AI is just software. You can back it up, make unlimited copies of it, move it around quite easily. The only place it gets complicated is when you introduce an organic life form with a less efficient form of data storage.”

The first war was over getting human form, though it’s fair to question how that weighed against a Cylon desire for freedom and revenge against humans for their slavery of the centurions. I can’t think of anything that disagrees with his point on why the five came to the colonies, I know it relates to the cycle that RDM wanted as a central theme of war with the Cylons inevitable as they don’t learn from mistakes, but the five had no reason to think the twelve tribes would develop centurions again... Wouldn’t it be contrived to have a scene of the angels, ship of lights, describing to the five that the colonies will create Cylons again as part of the cycle? Yet I see no other way to get the reasoning across.

To the other final final Cylon... the writers had to suddenly explain number 7 because they made boomer Eight. RDM explains it was purely a Cain Abel story to beef up cavils storyline, yet viewers believed commonly that seven was Daniel Starbucks father... Debunked by RDM who claimed surprise about it. Yet does it not fit well? As is the sevens could’ve had the genetic material poisoned by Cavil as stated, they never said the original died unless you just assume it was done so early on all the clones and the first seven were in resurrection tanks still. Yet if so why did John cavil think Daniel was Ellen’s favorite? It’s a little stretchy that he just thought she spent so much time making that model, compared to spending time with the first seven extensively which is what I for one read into how they stated it on the show.

Which brings up Starbuck. I guess there’s plausibility them making her a being of light, an angel, and clearly they sent her to her death in maelstrom. The plot hole is in why. The frak purpose did her death serve other than muddying things? For RDM, it was for drama and not his words but a bait and switch belief she’s dead and bring her back was the idea all along. Does any think her storyline is good? Or could be better? I see the drama, I don’t see how it was better how it was done, for the overall story.

My most pressing question. Why should there be Cylon human models? Numbers I mean. I get bringing in human form, I’m not seeing why there should be a self imposed limit, “there are only twelve cylon models...”
I can’t find any quotes yet, but the sense I’ve gotten hasn’t been disproved that they liked how that sounded, budgetary concerns, and rolled with it from the beginning. The only scientific backing I see is the issue with Cylons unable to reproduce which has commonly been associated with cloning, so ok they wanted clones for long life semi-immortality here’s the trade off. How did the fives not earth earth fix the issue with reproduction? Maybe they slept around with other humans of the tribes, didn’t leave for earth just Cylons, but then why didn’t they have same issues the seven Cylons had in the show where only Hera was born?
I do think there’s an acceptable partial in that the five aren’t numbered because they were born as stated by RDM, so the seven were created thus model numbers, created vs born. But why the limit? Because they lacked genetic material? They had the humans of the colonies, the experiments of centurions probably still gave access to humans, the five were genetic researchers and had genetic material which is how they made John in Ellen’s fathers image to an extent... I don’t see how it tracts well they just didn’t have enough material for more models of human Cylons.

So what do you guys think?

I’m thinking about redoing some things with my fanfic, and these are key things I’m just banging my head against a wall in frustration about.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:05 pm 
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Dragon wrote:
Hey all, wanted to ask fans of the BSG series some difficult questions.

The final five. Did anyone have any issue with this? Like with who was chosen, or anything?
I always figured they knew from the beginning maybe changed things over time with the series evolving. I just read more in depth from RDM that essentially they made this decision making season 3/4.


Yes...I felt like they went into it with an idea, and somewhere along the line someone said, "Hey! How about this?" and they abandoned whatever had been the original premise. While it added drama, I think the drama was unnecessary given the other things that were happening within the storyline at the time. However, I think that the Tighs and Tyrol were excellent choices when they did it. Tori and Sam...they were extras who had good agents.

Quote:
Is Tigh an issue? Ellen I understand, from her first episode it was always a question and truthfully it brought depth to her character. Tigh is a serious shift as RDM admits because he was the most human character, yet there’s an interesting dichotomy as he’s so antiCylon yet he himself is a Cylon... it does bring up plot issues I
As I’ve seen others comment as such. That at least Saul was put on the colonies 30 years BCH or only 10 years after armistice which posits that the Cylons first broke the armistice and did it ever have real meaning?


I think these two were perhaps the most perfect choices when they decided to have primary characters be part of the Final 5. Your comment about Tigh being the most human character is spot on; he's very flawed, yet he has a sense of character and personal honor/code that he refuses to surrender. Looking back, I saw a lot of my father in that character...from the personal code to the alcoholism.

Quote:
I don’t really get Tory. RDM admitted she was really just a wildcard, and they wrote her shocking scenes IE 86ing Cally from this change in mind. Main thing is Tory replaced Billy and only because the outside world chimed in, the actor didn’t want to commit to 5 years. Would Billy have been a better choice?


Would Billy have been a better choice? Not just yes, but hell yes!

Quote:
Tyrol. Does anyone think this one fits? Like Tigh it’s more a stretch or just something fans maybe feel wrong about, that we had one thing in mind and in the ninth hour it’s shifted and turned it’s on head. The actor for Tyrol was the only one on record when RDM brought this to them who was saying “I just really don’t want to be a Cylon.” Given the boomer/baby with Cally business it’s a hot mess. Everything is seen through a different lense.


And yet as they fleshed out his backstory on Earth (both through Flashbacks and through the plans for his character on Caprica), where Tigh was the strength of the Five, Galen was the soul and spirit. I think it changed his character more than any of the other four, however.

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Sam. Kind of seems thrown in there like Tory to end cap, get the five number. Kind of dig it, at the same time just don’t see the point either. What are y’all’s thoughts?


I thought he was a pretty boy that got hooked up with one of the more influential characters and then they realized that he didn't have anything to really offer...so they made him a Cylon.

Quote:
The five are somewhat integral, without their inclusion there’s no clear answer why the Cylons agreed to armistice, how the human Cylons come to be... Yet other issues come up, does it seem contrived they’re from a complete other Earth? That was an ending they filmed not knowing if the show continued for S4.5, just finding nuked 13th colony world of Kobol Cylons. RDMs apparent main mission was finding Earth and he believed the show ended when they did, period. Yet the Five have to be from somewhere, so the giant red herring of nuked not Earth, Earth.


I thought that nuked Earth was perhaps one of the most dramatic sequences in modern television history. It wasn't supposed to happen that way; they were supposed to find a home, a new Eden, where they could settle down and rest, rebuild, and become whole again. Instead, they found devastation. And then in a following scene, to see Dee commit suicide, that just hammers home the fact that the universe really doesn't like happy endings.

Quote:
One of my beta readers biggest issue with the series was over this with the Five.
“ There are two reasons I see the final five story line as flawed:
1.) There is a very tacked on nature to the entire story line. The destruction of their home world, their travel to the colonies, creating the other human Cylons, Cavil's rebellion is all told by back story and exposition. None of it is ever seen on screen. These are all major plot points and we get it all by dialog and some heavy-handing about it being god's will. All this comes from BSG writers making up a lot of this as they went, so the story structure feels disjointed. Moreover, why I’ve been bothered by the fives origin story, Basically, it doesn't make any sense.

So the thirteenth tribe are Cylons, or Cylons who split off from the thirteenth tribe. Whichever it is, they go on to form their homeworld, we'll call it 'fake earth'. So on 'fake earth' they had the ability to resurrect, but they gave it up for biological reproduction. But why? Why would they give it up? Just like the Colonials giving up their technology when they settle on the 'real earth' there is little reason to do so. If reproduction represents the way for them to evolve, why can't they have both? Does the ability to have children out weigh the ability to save a loved one from an accident through resurrection technology? I can't see much of a reason why both couldn't be used.


This is a good point and one that needs a comment. Why did they give it up? It was a symbolic discarding of the past and all the mistakes that the technology caused (or was believed to have caused); in short, it was their phoenix moment where they allowed what they were to be subsumed by the fires of creation in the hopes that the result would be better and avoid the mistakes of the past. It doesn't matter the technology, it is that symbolic rebirth that was the point.

Quote:
After the destruction of 'fake earth' the survivors travel to the 12 colonies. Now you could make the argument they were traveling there as refugees, but they do make the specific point of saying they came to warn the others about living with their creations. Again why? They have not had any contact with the other colonies in centuries. They have no idea what state of technology the colonies are at, or what their social interaction with each other or any potential AIs they might have created.

Then when they do get there, they don't try to contact both sides and broker a peace. Instead, they offer the Colonial Cylons the ability for human form bodies and the ability to resurrect. But why would the Colonial Cylons want this? They wanted to liberate themselves from their creators (and/or exterminate them) What would motivate them to want this offered technology? Also I would argue they would likely already have the ability to resurrect themselves (or at least be working on the tech). AI is just software. You can back it up, make unlimited copies of it, move it around quite easily. The only place it gets complicated is when you introduce an organic life form with a less efficient form of data storage.”


To understand this you really need to watch Caprica which goes into the philosophy of the One True God of the Monotheists. The original Cylons were, for all intents and purposes, the children of Zoe Graystone, and as such, they held her beliefs. Monotheism was, in many ways, similar to an Abrahamic religion. It was a human religion that the Cylons embraced. The Cylons were following a religion that taught humanity was created in the image of the One True God, and yet, here they are, sentient machines worshiping that god...of course they'd want to be human, because to be human was to be cast in the image of their god.

Now, the Five arrived in Colonial space roughly 58 years prior to the holocaust, or about 6 years prior to the uprising. Galen was the one who helped the Graystones create the body that Zoe downloaded into (this was part of the 2nd season that was planned for Caprica). Why they didn't try to mediate a peace, I don't know.

Quote:
The first war was over getting human form, though it’s fair to question how that weighed against a Cylon desire for freedom and revenge against humans for their slavery of the centurions. I can’t think of anything that disagrees with his point on why the five came to the colonies, I know it relates to the cycle that RDM wanted as a central theme of war with the Cylons inevitable as they don’t learn from mistakes, but the five had no reason to think the twelve tribes would develop centurions again... Wouldn’t it be contrived to have a scene of the angels, ship of lights, describing to the five that the colonies will create Cylons again as part of the cycle? Yet I see no other way to get the reasoning across.


I think we have to accept that there was a higher/more advanced power at work within the greater framework of the series, otherwise how would you reconcile Starbuck? However, that said, the Five fled a genocide that they believed was caused by sentient robots only to arrive where they thought would be their place of refuge to find similar robots embedded throughout society. I think at that point they would have to wonder whether these were evolved versions of what they fled, wonder if they knew anything about Earth, and that they'd probably want to go underground and find out what the heck was going on. Once they realized what was going on, I think they tried to work behind the scenes to nudge things in the right/safe direction.

Quote:
To the other final final Cylon... the writers had to suddenly explain number 7 because they made boomer Eight. RDM explains it was purely a Cain Abel story to beef up cavils storyline, yet viewers believed commonly that seven was Daniel Starbucks father... Debunked by RDM who claimed surprise about it. Yet does it not fit well? As is the sevens could’ve had the genetic material poisoned by Cavil as stated, they never said the original died unless you just assume it was done so early on all the clones and the first seven were in resurrection tanks still. Yet if so why did John cavil think Daniel was Ellen’s favorite? It’s a little stretchy that he just thought she spent so much time making that model, compared to spending time with the first seven extensively which is what I for one read into how they stated it on the show.


From a watcher's perspective, it makes sense for Daniel to be Starbuck's father. From a producer's perspective, I can see how it doesn't. And kudos to RDM for sticking to his guns about it and not allowing the fans to dictate the plot.

Quote:
Which brings up Starbuck. I guess there’s plausibility them making her a being of light, an angel, and clearly they sent her to her death in maelstrom. The plot hole is in why. The frak purpose did her death serve other than muddying things? For RDM, it was for drama and not his words but a bait and switch belief she’s dead and bring her back was the idea all along. Does any think her storyline is good? Or could be better? I see the drama, I don’t see how it was better how it was done, for the overall story.


Of all the characters, Starbuck was the one I had a love/hate relationship with. Even with Adama's patronage, she should have been cashiered from the service due to her insubordination. End of story. Beyond that, she just never knew when to be professional. However, regarding her death, I think they picked the perfect character for the Jekyll/Hyde personality that she began to exhibit. Her death and resurrection served the purpose of introducing a "guiding hand" at the end when they made the jump to what we believe is "our" Earth.

Quote:
My most pressing question. Why should there be Cylon human models? Numbers I mean. I get bringing in human form, I’m not seeing why there should be a self imposed limit, “there are only twelve cylon models...”
I can’t find any quotes yet, but the sense I’ve gotten hasn’t been disproved that they liked how that sounded, budgetary concerns, and rolled with it from the beginning. The only scientific backing I see is the issue with Cylons unable to reproduce which has commonly been associated with cloning, so ok they wanted clones for long life semi-immortality here’s the trade off. How did the fives not earth earth fix the issue with reproduction? Maybe they slept around with other humans of the tribes, didn’t leave for earth just Cylons, but then why didn’t they have same issues the seven Cylons had in the show where only Hera was born?


From a production standpoint, it allowed the "bad guys" to be readily identified to the viewer without having to introduce new characters/backstory. I'm cool with that. I'm also cool with the presumption that the Five started out giving them cloning technology and not reproductive ability to remove the whole love/romance/jealousy aspect of relationships. It clearly didn't work and we also have to realize that the Five were from a different culture and weren't Monotheists, so the imperative to "be fruitful and multiply" wasn't part of the original project scope.

I will offer this as non-canon from Lady Hecate: Cylon culture had evolved to hold the Five as the ultimate representatives of God, with the numbered models being the priesthood that would minister to the greater Cylon population. The numbered models would reproduce by cloning while the greater Cylon population (created from DNA samples taken during the Uprising) would be just as unique as their Colonial cousins.

Quote:
I do think there’s an acceptable partial in that the five aren’t numbered because they were born as stated by RDM, so the seven were created thus model numbers, created vs born. But why the limit? Because they lacked genetic material? They had the humans of the colonies, the experiments of centurions probably still gave access to humans, the five were genetic researchers and had genetic material which is how they made John in Ellen’s fathers image to an extent... I don’t see how it tracts well they just didn’t have enough material for more models of human Cylons.

So what do you guys think?

I’m thinking about redoing some things with my fanfic, and these are key things I’m just banging my head against a wall in frustration about.


See above.

_________________
Kurt

Click the link to read Lady Hecate off line in PDF, .epub, or Kindle formats: http://www.bsg94.org/downloads/index.html
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:06 am 
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I agree, like the they have a plan was just a line they thought sounded good, not sure there was a definite plan in the beginning. They mostly did it according to RDM because they said twelve models in the beginning and only 7 were shown so suddenly they had to fill that quota.

Some people were angry at Tigh being one because so beloved, older cast... Guess it’s both ways. My concerns with the timeline which is more under the microscope with Tigh a Cylon final five.

“Later, Cavil unboxed the Five but implanted them with new memories, a sleeper-like setup not unlike how Sharon Valerii once was. He unboxed Saul Tigh first, then Ellen and the rest later.” He is resurrected and introduced to the colonies as a military officer with false history of fighting in the war.

I’m not aware of specific details from the writers or in canon on the timeline, but the general idea is about 30 years prior to the attacks Saul Tigh out back believing he’d fought in the war. Perhaps they took details from someone who was on the Brenik preferably their relatives all deceased which with the colonies damage is likely, so changing the details in a computer wouldn’t be hard and nothing really contradicts Tighs life story then. Fine. But he’s still back in the colonies along with Ellen not long after the earliest and that’s about only 10 years after the armistice, whereas the colonials kept to the armistice until Valkyrie 24 years later, after the Cylons crossed the line.

Then the other five didn’t seem to be put on the colonies until about 10 years before the fall, unless their clones grew up on the colonies. Tyrol was 18 first served on a Battlestar, easily doable and when he came to the colonies since he served 10 years experience by his own words less than a year after cylon holocaust.

So does the armistice hold any meaning? The large basis some Cylons had for the second war was the threat of the humans after they broke the armistice, but if the Cylons broke the Armistice first they’re hypocrites and the meaning of the armistice is called into question. In my story this is integral as I thought it should be to the series. They agreed to an armistice between both sides and that was all they had, a cessation of hostilities on the agreement it would end if either side crossed the line in space dividing cylon/colonial territory. If the Cylons broke it first, they don’t get to hold it against the humans for tiptoeing on the line for fear of no contact with the Cylons which they had tried to maintain every year to absolute silence from the Cylons.

As to Billy, strange thought but what if he’d been the Tighs son on Not Earth earth? He did come across as younger, I thought it’d be interesting. Plus have to explain why with them as only five survive, perhaps following parents footsteps working in genetics or the one handling the ship in orbit? Kind of integral there since the not earth didn’t have ships.

Hmm what change do you think being a five brought Tyrol? I’m looking back through reviews and the show. Besides choking Tory which I admit seemed right playing to the murder of Cally they never gave closure for, briefly helping Sharon when she took hera, and going through depression particularly learning Callys kid wasn’t his which is dramatic BS, not sure the Chief changed much. It put more distinctive drama to everyday things, but I’m not seeing how being a Cylon really changed him or was good.

Though I did just find this so... “Ron Moore explains in the DVD commentary for the Miniseries that Chief Tyrol was originally supposed to be a fairly small role, and in the first script of the Miniseries he only had about 15 lines. However, Aaron Douglas was so good at ad libbing new lines for scenes as production moved forward that Moore kept writing him into a bigger character.”

A la Vega, the writers really lucked out in tying things together.

Looking back at Tyrol I have to ask, why didn’t he just marry Sharon in season 1 when he’s told to break off the relationship? I know there was the dramatic suspicions of who was a cylon and the issue with socinus, but he never moved past it and if he loved her even when she died, I’m not understanding what stopped him from marrying her. The whole crewmen and command staff issue wouldn’t matter if they were married, and could thumb their nose asking to be sent to another warship in separation from the same command unit.

Quote:
I thought that nuked Earth was perhaps one of the most dramatic sequences in modern television history. It wasn't supposed to happen that way; they were supposed to find a home, a new Eden, where they could settle down and rest, rebuild, and become whole again. Instead, they found devastation. And then in a following scene, to see Dee commit suicide, that just hammers home the fact that the universe really doesn't like happy endings.

- Dramatic certainly. Necessary though? Good for the story?
- They could’ve easily had them find the other earth and included that the Cylons found the Kobolans original home world, Earth. Could’ve been modern like in original series, deal with those new issues with the other Cylons still a threat.
- I know it plays back to Adamas promise of a new home and their belief it would fix everything and the realization they have to actually help themselves is good, but it’s still bait and switch, and then having to find New Earth...

Quote:
This is a good point and one that needs a comment. Why did they give it up? It was a symbolic discarding of the past and all the mistakes that the technology caused (or was believed to have caused); in short, it was their phoenix moment where they allowed what they were to be subsumed by the fires of creation in the hopes that the result would be better and avoid the mistakes of the past. It doesn't matter the technology, it is that symbolic rebirth that was the point.

- I agree with your point, and told my beta as much. I do see RDMs desire of the cycle again, and I agree there the necessity because even the thirteenth of Cylons learned nothing and did it all again, enslaving their own robotic race that rebelled and revolution. It’s like the saying from GW, the three beats of war, peace, and revolution are inevitable. And those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
- All that said, I question if the separate earth of Cylons is necessary or better for the story?
- Couldn’t the Cylons have another explanation for the armistice, gotten their own human form themselves, and otherwise met the foil requirement the Five offered them? Perhaps been developing more a society like the original series Cylons, and seeing the threat of war after Valkyrie acted?

Quote:
I think we have to accept that there was a higher/more advanced power at work within the greater framework of the series, otherwise how would you reconcile Starbuck? However, that said, the Five fled a genocide that they believed was caused by sentient robots only to arrive where they thought would be their place of refuge to find similar robots embedded throughout society. I think at that point they would have to wonder whether these were evolved versions of what they fled, wonder if they knew anything about Earth, and that they'd probably want to go underground and find out what the heck was going on. Once they realized what was going on, I think they tried to work behind the scenes to nudge things in the right/safe direction.

- Precisely, God was their answer way too often. To acceptable in extreme situations preferably where it’s not plot integral but going back that happened too often. The temple of hopes, god did it. Kara, the magical coordinates for Earth, god did it. On and on.
- It does seem clear the Five were watching if they gave Zoe the info for a human form, though what came from that we don’t know since Zoe never showed up in Galactica. Otherwise we just know they started the armistice and rebuilt Cylon race, and were neutral from there until dropped on the colonies as a human.


Would you want to see Daniel be Karas father, or just keep the sevens dead?

Quote:
From a production standpoint, it allowed the "bad guys" to be readily identified to the viewer without having to introduce new characters/backstory. I'm cool with that. I'm also cool with the presumption that the Five started out giving them cloning technology and not reproductive ability to remove the whole love/romance/jealousy aspect of relationships. It clearly didn't work and we also have to realize that the Five were from a different culture and weren't Monotheists, so the imperative to "be fruitful and multiply" wasn't part of the original project scope.

I will offer this as non-canon from Lady Hecate: Cylon culture had evolved to hold the Five as the ultimate representatives of God, with the numbered models being the priesthood that would minister to the greater Cylon population. The numbered models would reproduce by cloning while the greater Cylon population (created from DNA samples taken during the Uprising) would be just as unique as their Colonial cousins.


I appreciate your point on production standpoint, bears thinking because so often they let the shows production determine the shows events and plot.
I do have to query if the Five made the distinction being able to be cloned but no reproduction intending for eventual integration with the colonials?
Or do you think the Five never intended integration with humanity?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:34 am 
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Hope everyone knows they can weigh in. Keep BSG alive that way.

I've thought up some other series questions.

In Tigh me up/down. Adama was suspicious that Ellen could be a Cylon, despite how long they knew her. So, why was Tigh so shocking revealed as a Cylon? Yet never suspected?

Ellen and boomer positive for test as a human Cylon, how does the show explain Baltar didn't tell Adama? To Boomer lie at first so she doesn't just kill him, but why not tell the military afterward? Same with Tigh/Ellen would be sensitive but little danger, so...? Arguable the five don't show on test like the other Cylons I guess, its just a little ridiculous no?

Kobol's last gleaming P2 - why on earth were there naked 8s in the baseship hangar? Might be first time I noticed re-watching this past week, all I can say is what?!. Point of this sequence? Assuming they let the baseship be destroyed for Sharon to do her mission. Still seems stupid, could've just as easily had her shoot Adama without doing this. Drama obviously, but isn't it just a little contrived on a show valuing logical conclusions to character actions?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:34 pm 
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Hope everyone knows they can weigh in. Keep BSG alive that way.

I've thought up some other series questions.

In Tigh me up/down. Adama was suspicious that Ellen could be a Cylon, despite how long they knew her. So, why was Tigh so shocking revealed as a Cylon? Yet never suspected?


You trust your friends and distrust those who you believe are a bad influence on them; Tigh was Adama's friend, a brother almost, while he saw that Ellen drove Tigh to drink and other self destructive behavior. How many times have you called someone you don't like "evil", "demonic", etc.?

Quote:
Ellen and boomer positive for test as a human Cylon, how does the show explain Baltar didn't tell Adama? To Boomer lie at first so she doesn't just kill him, but why not tell the military afterward? Same with Tigh/Ellen would be sensitive but little danger, so...? Arguable the five don't show on test like the other Cylons I guess, its just a little ridiculous no?


Ellen tested positive? I thought it was just Boomer? If she did, then Baltar could have held that information as a hole card; something that he could use when it best benefited him. He was elected as Vice President, so he was climbing the ranks of power, then when the fleet scattered he couldn't use it because it would adversely impact his safety by adding more chaos into the system. Once the fleet was back together, he may have realized that holding on to the information for so long and not saying anything would raise more questions than he wanted to deal with. After all, it's one thing to say that you were watching and evaluating, trying to make sure, and then months down the line trying to handwave away something that should have been done a year earlier.

Quote:
Kobol's last gleaming P2 - why on earth were there naked 8s in the baseship hangar? Might be first time I noticed re-watching this past week, all I can say is what?!. Point of this sequence? Assuming they let the baseship be destroyed for Sharon to do her mission. Still seems stupid, could've just as easily had her shoot Adama without doing this. Drama obviously, but isn't it just a little contrived on a show valuing logical conclusions to character actions?


I think that up to this point, Boomer may not have been fully on Team Cylon. She did things that advanced the Cylon cause, but at the same time she did things that didn't when she was supposed to. Seeing copies of herself, with nothing hiding anything, hammered home what she was and probably broke the last bit of resistance to the cause.

Having the baseship destroyed was a calculated risk by the Cylons. They hadn't suffered any losses to date (unless someone was lucky during the initial attack), and sacrificing one to cement Boomer's authenticity was certainly worth it; they sacrificed a Bishop so a Pawn could take a shot at the King.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:52 pm 
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Good point. And I got what adama was trying to say in the episode, almost like it would’ve been better if she were a Cylon get her away as a bad influence on Tigh. It’s just a little more given the Cylon issue, suddenly with her really accused anyone could be a Cylon. And with the fear that adama could be by Roslin, why wasn’t Tigh accused?
If nothing else I wonder why they didn’t follow on this storyline that anyone could be a Cylon, which really follows up on the independent tribunal episode. But instead a season later they just know all the Cylons faces.

Ellen was kept ambiguous, Baltar just decided to make everyone green and tell no one the real results. Given the hints thrown around I kind of always figured she was positive. But it’s another blemish in logic to the show along with why on earth didn’t Baltar tell anyone the results of his Cylon detector? He never used it as a symbol of power being able to claim anyone’s a Cylon. And the one scene he’s doing something poisoning Tyrol to get info from Sharon, it’s rather meaningless and given his failure to identity Sharon no one exactly trusts what he says on the matter... where was the benefit? I get your point that at a certain point he’d waited too long to say anything, but I fail to see the logic in not simply being upfront. His only stated reason for not telling was fear of retribution, which only makes sense in lying to boomer so she doesn’t kill him while they’re alone, it’s illogical to not tell once he’s out of that situation.

Which brings me to my other question. Why on earth was Baltar even put in power? To start with anyway. He’s their only scientist and rather busy, so why would they make him a write in candidate for Caprica? The only knowledge they could e had in the fleet about him before that was rumors spread among the fleet about him working on the Cylon detector, so why would they want this scientist to be a politician? From there I get it, the devil you know as Roslin said making him Vice President so it’s not Zarek, but he shouldn’t have been there to begin with, and aside from his dalliance he had no desire to be in politics. He got precious little from it until elected president during which he proceeded to do nothing. I assume this storyline is to match the original series political machinations of Baltar but do you think it fits the new series Baltar?

That’s the ambiguouty with Boomer. I don’t think she was ever really team Cylon. She was put there as a mission but never able to remember it and really thought she was Sharon, and at the same time grew to love the ships crew, I have to wonder if she’d not been a sleeper agent would she have simply chose not to act at all? Her programming which they erroneously retconned in the plan was the only thing that pushed her across the finish line to doing her job. And I can see the good drama in her resisting it, the whole water sequence destroying water then allowing them to find more water simultaneously acting for her programming to make the humans vulnerable to being found and helping them instead of not letting them find the water... I mostly agree that seeing her copies helped to force her to act, I don’t think the naked 8s was necessary to that. It wasn’t really much of a conscience choice though, she pulled the gun and just shot him. I fail to see why she couldn’t have done that earlier in the season at any time. Now if instead it was a conscious choice to reveal herself in resisting the programming, I guess it works though why she couldn’t just shoot herself or shoot randomly or scream I’m a Cylon! But they retcon that idea, she’s wondering what just happened, all in shock like she had no control yet I always figured she did because she had free rein in shooting and miraculously missed vital organs with 3 shots? I figured she missed on purpose, and ousted herself allowing Adama to live and meeting her programming that she disabled the ships command. She seemed more free of programming afterward. Yet both can’t be true, her consciously making the decision and missing to save his life, yet being so shocked that she did it and denying reality...


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:42 pm 
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Location: Battlestar Hecate BSG-94
About Baltar: Baltar had celebrity status and Roslin wanted anyone but Zarek. Baltar gave her that win. Also, Baltar is an opportunistic, self-centered, coward for most of the show and does nothing that isn't in his own self interest or self preservation.

About Boomer: Season 2 and later can be debated, but the first season was tightly planned and I don't see any retconning going on. Regarding shooting someone...real life isn't Hollywood; the average person can't run two blocks, stop, and then shoot four zombies in the head with five rounds. Just doesn't happen. When she started shooting at Adama, the gun was generally angled low and climbed during the shots. Short of a CNS/Spinal hit, most of what she would have hit could take the hit provided medical attention was readily available.

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Click the link to read Lady Hecate off line in PDF, .epub, or Kindle formats: http://www.bsg94.org/downloads/index.html
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:50 am 
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Baltar was supposed to grow after Kobol, but your right he mostly remained the same, self serving opportunist. There was a brief uptick like he was more a man of action, or at least as man’ as six dubbed him for killing crashdown and occasionally. Ore confrontational. I think Gina six is the real reason he didn’t develop further, from there, along with politics. Gina has no arc, just wanted to die after what happened to her and did it. I don’t see what purpose there was in tagging her with baltar other than if the writers ran dry on what to do with head Six with baltar.

My question is what if Baltar actually did change after his experience on Kobol? More confrontational, not hiding. Like if he admitted what happened, his involvement in the attacks to Adama, actually provide good intel as a Cylon expert who’s not a Cylon...?

In the movie the plan is the retcon I meant. Initially it was clear Boomers programming took over, programming designed because the Cylons did not expect total success in the attacks and the sleeper agents were their insurance, with programming to destabilize opposing forces. Otherwise what was the point of sleeper agents? It was an infinitely more interesting storyline, and I thought it climaxed with her shooting Adama, because in my belief she couldn’t stop herself from shooting him but she did make sure she didn’t get a kill shot. At point blank range she could’ve hit him in the head or the heart, some important internal organ, or even just kept shooting until her gun was empty. Same way she resisted her programming and didn’t blow herself up and let the fleet find water, when she could’ve made it an accident, made it impossible for the fleet to find water or further delayed things...
instead, the plan retconned that storyline with new footage that Sharon was being ordered on the ship by Cavil and made to forget their talks by programming as she took in those orders even if she didn’t agree with them. Which more begs the question was any of her development as Boomer real, and why did she freak out shun Cylons when she resurrected if she was so down to kill them? Let alone her later development to not caring about anything, until she just lets hers escape, just because... it made an even bigger mess of her character development, which went sideways after her plot line in leadership of the Cylons from downloaded failed via new Caprica failing as it was obviously going to.

I wanted to ask, in a story what would you think of throwing out the limits of thirteen human models? Could keep it initially and fix it, allow them make more models later? Or just make it so from the beginning, removing limitations on who could be a Cylon? I never understood why they limited themselves in the beginning saying twelve which they then had to fix when they named boomer 8, and if it was really just because they thought the line sounded cool... I’m just pushing my face into a wall here, don’t mind me.
- on that same vein, what if Boomer wasn’t a Cylon? What if Racetrack was or someone else responsible for the water sabotage? Other than shooting Adama, I’m not really seeing the value in it being Boomer, and the original script actually just had her as a rookie pilot focused on her relations with Tyrol, which would be more interesting rewriting knowing HE is a Cylon... No?

Other big question, what if Roslin didn’t have Cancer? I’m curious what would happen with Hera to safeguard her life, but moreover the hybrid blood giving Roslin a few more years then mysteriously giving her cancer again right when they start fleeing the Cylons again... its rather opportunistic, if not just lazy writing. And apparently it was just because it seemed interesting to Moore. Now imagine season 1 that’s not hanging over Roslin, suddenly she doesn’t get a one way ticket out of this crap, gotta live with how bad life is for them now.


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